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Re: TOY: Re: Fuel injection cleaning / getting hard to start - octane
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Re: TOY: Re: Fuel injection cleaning / getting hard to start - octane
"But those were 2 strokes? Different beasts.
One thing I have not seen in this thread but heard elsewhere is that some
engines adjust advance and other parameters to prevent or reduce detonation.
It would seem in this case lower octane might not seem to be causing
problems but would be reducing engine performance.
Can you advance timing further with higher octane and not get detonation?
Been a while since I messed with going outside of factory specs and that was
on 60's muscle car engines. Those engines definitely had different design
characteristics than the ones in our Toyotas. Any benefit to doing that on
my 86 22re?
In general I have always been of the belief that running higher than
necessary octane is at most a waist of money and will not hurt performance
in anyway. That is the story I am sticking to. John"
High performance engines that run high compression from the factory
require premium fuel to prevent detonation. But many times when at
extremely low altitudes on hot days pulling loads (like my example of the
"Barstow Grade" (or was it the "Baker Grade," I forgot)), your octane
requirements increase. But instead of having them buy race fuel or
something, their is a knock sensor. It is a crystal that feels detonation,
and emits a currrent that tells the computer to delay the spark.
When the engine is working normally, it takes "X" amount of time to burn
the mixture before the peak power from the explosion occurs, which is when
the power is transfered to the piston. You want this peak power to occur
"Y" degrees after top dead center. "Y" is a pretty small number, and takes
less than a blink of an eye to go from zero degrees (TDC) to Y degrees. So,
because the mixture takes X amount of time to burn (longer than that blink
of an eye), the spark must occur somewhere before TDC, when the piston is
still moving up.
When using a fuel with less octane than required, the mixture becomes
unstable during compression. The compression causes heat. The higher the
octane, the more stable it is, and the more compression it can tolerate.
When it can no longer tolerate the compression, it combusts. So now you
have mixture burning from this combustion, then the spark occurs, and the
time X that the fuel burns under normal conditions is cut in half. So peak
power from those explosions occur before TDC, and trys to force the engine
backwards. That is detonation.
Soooooooo, back to my point. The knock sensor feels the detonation, and
delays the spark so that both explosions can work together to produce peak
power somewhere past TDC.
The only rational reason I can think of to run a higher octane than
required regularly is this. Higher octane gas actually produces less BTU's
of heat energy than a lower octane. This is what they talk about when
saying premium produces a "smoother" burn and regular produces a "violent"
burn. That violent burning is what gives you more power, so yes, running
higher octane than required will decrease performance. That extra power of
regular to premium just causes a little more wear and tear on the engine.
And that is the only benefit I can see.
Sorry for rambling so much. If it's too much, just tell me to shut up.
Brandon.
Oh, and the jet skis were made with both 2 and 4 stroke engines. I have an
88 Kawasaki Jet Ski with a 2 stroke, and a 90 with a 4 stroke.
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From owner-toyota@www.4x4wire.com Fri Aug 23 03:25:09 2002
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From: "brandon naves" <im4boardin@hotmail.com>
To: toyota@4x4Wire.com
Subject: Re: TOY: EFI intakes
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 01:25:03 -0700
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I made an adapter myself, and bought a Kragen cone filter. I did notice a
little more umph, seemed like low rpms performance increased just a bit.
But my guess is because of the restrictive stock air box. If you cut off
the bottom half and fab a braket to hamg it on, it will probably yiels the
same results.
There are a couple problems with this. One is it subjects the intake to a
lot hotter air temperatures with my setup. Also with mine, the filter is
just waiting for mud and water where it sits. The other problem is the
resonator is disconnected. I just left the hose off, but it started making
noise, so I taped up the end. If I decide to stay with this setup, I will
drill through the adapter and weld in a small piece so I can hook the
resonator up again.
Here's a couple pics of mine. These were taken just after I put it
together, and I have since changed a few things. I fabbed a bracket to
mount it to, and got rid of all the zip ties. Basically just cleaned up all
the "mickey mouse" stuff I did to get it done. I used to frequent the local
mud holes, but not anymore. The filter seems to attract it in that spot, so
no more (among other reasons).
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/5feef820/bc/My+Photos/Dcp_0024.jpg?bcSuXj9AI9c.sjpN
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/5feef820/bc/My+Photos/Dcp_0025.jpg?bcF5Xj9AV96d4dex
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From owner-toyota@www.4x4wire.com Fri Aug 23 08:51:06 2002
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 06:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Todd Ballard <todd@bonnifer.com>
Subject: Re: TOY: Re: Fuel injection cleaning / getting hard to start - octane
To: toyota@4x4Wire.com
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snip
>
> Can you advance timing further with higher octane
> and not get detonation?
> Been a while since I messed with going outside of
> factory specs and that was
> on 60's muscle car engines. Those engines definitely
> had different design
> characteristics than the ones in our Toyotas. Any
> benefit to doing that on
> my 86 22re?
>
> In general I have always been of the belief that
> running higher than
> necessary octane is at most a waist of money and
> will not hurt performance
> in anyway. That is the story I am sticking to. John"
>
Your Toyota engine may benifit. My 80 series is set to
a very low base timing number for use in areas of the
world with poor fuel. It is a very common thing to
increase the base timing 6-8 degrees to gain
performance. If you encounter spark knock, you can
turn it back a little or use higher octane fuel. I
prefer the latter as I enjoy the performance I lost
when I increased the tire size. The 80, and most newer
engines run knock sensor that will retard the timing
drastically when knock is heard by the sensor. It will
give you worse performance when this happens than if
you never advanced it at all. It is best to set it up
conservatively.
As an aside, I had to run 104 or better in my last two
stroke. My Polaris Scrambler had been tweaked a bit.
TB
>
>
>
>
> High performance engines that run high compression
> from the factory
> require premium fuel to prevent detonation. But
> many times when at
> extremely low altitudes on hot days pulling loads
> (like my example of the
> "Barstow Grade" (or was it the "Baker Grade," I
> forgot)), your octane
> requirements increase. But instead of having them
> buy race fuel or
> something, their is a knock sensor. It is a crystal
> that feels detonation,
> and emits a currrent that tells the computer to
> delay the spark.
> When the engine is working normally, it takes "X"
> amount of time to burn
> the mixture before the peak power from the explosion
> occurs, which is when
> the power is transfered to the piston. You want
> this peak power to occur
> "Y" degrees after top dead center. "Y" is a pretty
> small number, and takes
> less than a blink of an eye to go from zero degrees
> (TDC) to Y degrees. So,
> because the mixture takes X amount of time to burn
> (longer than that blink
> of an eye), the spark must occur somewhere before
> TDC, when the piston is
> still moving up.
> When using a fuel with less octane than required,
> the mixture becomes
> unstable during compression. The compression causes
> heat. The higher the
> octane, the more stable it is, and the more
> compression it can tolerate.
> When it can no longer tolerate the compression, it
> combusts. So now you
> have mixture burning from this combustion, then the
> spark occurs, and the
> time X that the fuel burns under normal conditions
> is cut in half. So peak
> power from those explosions occur before TDC, and
> trys to force the engine
> backwards. That is detonation.
> Soooooooo, back to my point. The knock sensor
> feels the detonation, and
> delays the spark so that both explosions can work
> together to produce peak
> power somewhere past TDC.
>
> The only rational reason I can think of to run a
> higher octane than
> required regularly is this. Higher octane gas
> actually produces less BTU's
> of heat energy than a lower octane. This is what
> they talk about when
> saying premium produces a "smoother" burn and
> regular produces a "violent"
> burn. That violent burning is what gives you more
> power, so yes, running
> higher octane than required will decrease
> performance. That extra power of
> regular to premium just causes a little more wear
> and tear on the engine.
> And that is the only benefit I can see.
>
> Sorry for rambling so much. If it's too much,
> just tell me to shut up.
> Brandon.
>
> Oh, and the jet skis were made with both 2 and 4
> stroke engines. I have an
> 88 Kawasaki Jet Ski with a 2 stroke, and a 90 with a
> 4 stroke.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print
> your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
> 4x4Wire.com Toyota Section
http://www.4x4Wire.com/toyota/
=====
Todd Ballard - TLCA 5658, GLLC, WCLC
Naperville, IL
74 VJ-40 buncha stuff
95 FZJ-80 -lifted and locked
83 PU - coachwork by F2O3
pics at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/tballard2000?a&.intl=us&.src=ph
From owner-toyota@www.4x4wire.com Fri Aug 23 09:30:18 2002
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From: "Pat Fogle" <pfogle@bhcmhmr.org>
To: <toyota@4x4Wire.com>
Subject: TOY: Alternator Bracket
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:26:29 -0500
Organization: Betty Hardwick Center - An MHMR Resource
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I have an '84 22R (no efi) and I am looking for picture of how the
alternator is attached. I got it no there but it does not look right to me.
Does anyone have one? The front adjustment bracket is the one I am looking
for.
From owner-toyota@www.4x4wire.com Fri Aug 23 09:51:22 2002
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From: "Pat Fogle" <pfogle@bhcmhmr.org>
To: <toyota@4x4Wire.com>
Subject: TOY: Oil Leak/Shop Problem
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:47:28 -0500
Organization: Betty Hardwick Center - An MHMR Resource
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I have a newly rebuilt '84 22R (6 & 1/2 months ago now with 5000 miles). I
started to have an oil leak about 2 months ago. The oil is leaking from
between the block and the timing cover on the driver's side. It is coming
out below the distributor and just behind the heater pipe. Is this a common
leak? I have brought it back to the shop that rebuilt it two times, and the
first time they said that a timing cover bolt was missing (the one that
comes in from behind). They put in a bolt and said that it was fine. About
30 miles later the leak returned.
The second time I brought it in, they said that the gasket was messed up
from when the bolt was missing. They said that they have taken care of it.
I looked at it today and I have not seen any oil yet for sure, but it
appears as though they just put a thick coat of red RTV gasket silicone into
the gap where the oil was leaking from. I checked the bolt that they said
that they had put in previously, and it was not very tight and feels a
little stripped/crossthreaded. I am positive that I did not cause this
problem because the bolt never felt in any way tight. It seems like to me
that this is a quick fix on the shop's part that really should be fixed by
removing the timing cover, retapping the threads on the hole and putting on
a new gasket. The warranty on the rebuild was for 6 months, but I brought
this to the attention of the shop before 6 months and the first attempt at a
repair was before 6 months. Should I reasonable expect the shop to do this
job in the way that would seem like the right way to me, or should I be
satisfied with the repair that they did?
I am worried about two things:
1. The oil leak returning after a short time, and then she shop not being
willing to fix it because the warranty has run out.
2. If I tell the shop that the bolt felt crossthreaded, I am afraid that
they will tell me that I stripped it by overtightening it, and therefore not
cover the repair.
Any comments or ideas?
From owner-toyota@www.4x4wire.com Fri Aug 23 10:13:32 2002
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To: toyota mailing list <toyota@4x4Wire.com>
Subject: Re: TOY: Re: Fuel injection cleaning / getting hard to start - octane
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My '85 22RE engine lacks any knock sensor (I think it has a connector for one but none installated) and the sticker on the door
jamb recommends 87 octane fuel, so that's what I run. I even run the timing a little advanced, about 8 degrees vs. 5.
From owner-toyota@www.4x4wire.com Fri Aug 23 11:50:28 2002
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From: "Pat Fogle" <pfogle@bhcmhmr.org>
To: <toyota@4x4Wire.com>
Subject: TOY: RE: Re: [Toy4x4] Oil leak/Shop Problem
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 11:46:39 -0500
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Thanks, Dave. I think you are right. I just checked it again and there is
a leak still, but they did slow it down. I doubt it will last though. I
just called the shop to talk about the leak again and the man I need to talk
to is not in today. I hope I am not getting the run abound. I also hope he
is not on this list! Ha!
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Armbruster <jdarmbruster@yahoo.com>
To: <toy4x4@moab.off-road.com>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Toy4x4] Oil leak/Shop Problem
> If you brought the problem to their attention before
> the 6 months expired, then the time limit to have it
> resolved does not end at 6 months. They have to fix
> it to your satisfaction no matter how long it takes.
>
> Regarding telling them anything, I wouldn't. Just
> point out the problem and let them diagnose and fix
> it. If you get it back and the bolt is still loose or
> cross threaded, then you can reasonably assume that
> they aren't doing squat to really figure out what is
> the problem.
>
> Just my $0.02.
From owner-toyota@www.4x4wire.com Fri Aug 23 12:20:52 2002
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To: toyota@4x4Wire.com
Subject: Re: TOY: Alternator Bracket - for 22R
Message-ID: <1030123248.3d666ef0cff11@mail.hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 12:20:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dee <deesmith@hiwaay.net>
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Quoting Pat Fogle <pfogle@bhcmhmr.org>:
> I have an '84 22R (no efi) and I am looking for picture of how the
> alternator is attached. I got it no there but it does not look right to
> me.
> Does anyone have one? The front adjustment bracket is the one I am
> looking
> for.
Hi Pat,
this is an old picture of Bouncing-Betty's 22R engine B 4 it was sold.
- http://fly.hiwaay.net/~deesmith/images/84engine1.jpg
I will look thought my files and if I have a CU of the left side of the
original 22R engine I will send it along to you. :-)
HTH's
~ Dee
