OutfitBoss
Wheeler
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 212
Loc: Sapello NM USA 87745
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I am working on a 1986 TrooperII turbo diesel. I bought this vehicle with the front of the engine disassembled. Timing gear on the crankshaft was damaged along with who knows what else. Jerry was kind enough to supply me with a used harmonic balancer hub, timing gear, key and bolt so that I could get the engine started and see and hear what I was dealing with. Thank you Jerry. I reinstalled everything checked the oil and the engine turned over well, but only fired up after I administered CPR with the fuel hand primer for several minutes. The engine did the same thing it did when I started it with the radiator and water pump disconnected last week. It over-revved once it started, then it wouldn't shut off. Acy76 suggested I have a way to block off the intake if it ran away again. Weird, thing is that completely suffocating the air intake with a steel plate only slowed the engine. I already had the ignition switch off, I can only guess what RPM it was doing but it was scary. With my free hand I reached over to pull off the fuel supply line to the injector pump. Weirder yet there was not a drop of fuel present. What in the heck was the engine running on? No air, no fuel and it was running like a bat out of hell. It actually sounded pretty good except for the fact that it was probably doing 4000 RPMs there for a minute. Also the blocked air inlet only made the engine slow (thank god) not shut off. It was trying to over-rev then it seemed like I was starving it for air and about to die, then it would start to rev fast again. Maybe it was sucking fuel because it did shutdown a few seconds after I pulled the fuel line. I checked the fuel before I started it. I did this by using the primer to pump some into a jar. I smelled it for contaminates like gas, it seemed all right. It wouldn't light with a match so no gas present.
Like I said, what was the engine running on? The oil looked fine too, no contaminates there either. Proper level.
I have heard that a diesel can run on engine oil if it can make it into the cylinders. I guess I should check the compression next. Any ideas?
Sincerely,
Brian Rodgers
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Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
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jcouchster
Need a Spot
Reged: 07/09/06
Posts: 14
Loc: denver, CO
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There is a decent ammount of fuel in the injection pump itself.
Try unplugging the fuel cuttoff solinoid on the back of the pump,I think it's black W/ yel tracer,single wire.This should shut it down internally in the pump. 
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OutfitBoss
Wheeler
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 212
Loc: Sapello NM USA 87745
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Cool I'll look for the fuel shutoff plug. After sleeping on it I realized I could have let out the clutch in 4th gear to stop the engine.
Brian
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Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
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acy76
Mudrunner
Reged: 12/04/03
Posts: 354
Loc: Twin Cities
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Blocking the air intake should be a sure-fire way of killing the engine. I would try a phone book or similar - there is a good chance that the steel plate and the air intake are not parallel surfaces, which would leave a gap for air to pass through. I have heard of people using phone books for this purpose. Might be a good idea to duct tape 2 bands around it in both dimensions so the cover can't get sucked off and into the intake tract.
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1988 Isuzu Trooper LS
2.8l Isuzu 4JB1-TC intercooled turbo diesel
www.dieseltrooper.blogspot.com
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OutfitBoss
Wheeler
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 212
Loc: Sapello NM USA 87745
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It is true I could hear air leaking around the plate and rubber tube to the turbo inlet. I worry that it would suck most materials in. What do you think about the idea of using the brakes and high gear and letting out the clutch slowly?
thanks for the tips, Adrian.
Brian Rodgers
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Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
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JLEMOND
Body Damage is Cool
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 1214
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FIGURE OUT SOME WAY TO BLOCK THE AIR SUPPLY COMPLETELY ,, IT HAS TO HAVE AIR TO RUN , NO MATTER WHAT IT IS USING FOR FUEL , AND I BET IT HAS A BAD TURBO SEAL AND IS SUCKING OIL THRU THE INLET OF THE TURBO ITSELF, THERE REALLY IS NO OTHER PLACE THAT IS COMMON ON THESE ENGS , THAT WILL LET THEM RUN AWAY UNLESS THE CRANKCASE IS WAY OVER FULL ,THEN THEY CAN, BUT I AM TALKING 4=5 QTS TO MUCH, ONCE THE ENG STARTS REMEMBER THERE IS A FULL OIL PRESSURE LINE RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE TURBO HOUSING AND IF THE SEAL GOE,S IN THE TURBO, IT CAN PUMP OIL RIGHT INTO THE INTAKE AND AWAY WE GO, DROPPING THE CLUTCH IS ROUGH ON THE DISC, BUT IF YOU HAVE TO ??????, PULL THE INLET PIPE FROM THE TURBO OVER TO THE ENG INTAKE AND SEE IF IT IS FULL OF OIL ,, JERRY
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OutfitBoss
Wheeler
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 212
Loc: Sapello NM USA 87745
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All right I will try this too. Thanks Jerry
Brian
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Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
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OutfitBoss
Wheeler
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 212
Loc: Sapello NM USA 87745
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Ok I am finally ready to work in the shop. Thank you for the info about the turbo oil seal. I think this is the best place to start. One naively optimistic question: Is there a method of trouble shooting the seal besides taking the turbo unit off the engine?
A second question I've been pondering is what is the difference between an Inter cooled turbo and the type used on the C223T?
I have almost decided to give up the profession I spent fours years of college learning with twenty years of experience, namely digital electronics, and learning everything I need to know about diesel engines. I think or hope that diesels in small vehicles is the wave of the future. Again, I may be naive, but I want to start doing diesel conversions for my family's fleet of vehicles if I can master the diesel technology. I have done conversions, one engine swap and many many mechanical modifications. I'm no stranger to salvage and recycle.
Brian Rodgers 
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Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
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OutfitBoss
Wheeler
Reged: 05/08/06
Posts: 212
Loc: Sapello NM USA 87745
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Isuzu turbo diesel fuel system trouble shooting.
More questions, of course. Plus a few observations.
Looking at reasons this engine might run with the key off.
My execution of Acy76's suggestion to block the intake had a few flaws, now that I look at where I tried to block the intake. I opened the rubber pipe from the air clearer to the junction where the valve cover vents enter the intake. Bad idea on my part. I was only stopping the air coming from the cleaner. With this blocked air can still be sucked in from the top of the engine. This explains why this only slowed the engine down. If the engine was running on blow by from the crankcase this method was still letting that oily air in.
This time I opened the rubber duct directly connected to the turbo. I checked for excessive oil in the tube. There was some, not a lot. The inside of the rubber pipe was clean on top with a dab of oil on the bottom. I don't know if this suggests normal blow by. I will monitor the vents when I start it next time. This engine has 100,000 miles on it with the last few hundred driven at night by a woman who was unaware of the engine troubles the person who sold it to her had.
Another idea about this engine running post ignition (switch shut off) might be attributed to injector pump pushing too much fuel. I went over the fuel cut off solenoid to make sure it was working properly. There are two wires going to the solenoid. On the schematic it shows two wires going in, but only one activates the coil. Which one is it? Other solenoids run one wire to the solenoid case for a ground. Is this the case here? I don't see a ground on either wire, but I will double check this. I would like to remove the fuel shut off solenoid, but it is hard to get to, under the battery bracket. I put a voltmeter on it and with the key in the glow plug on, pre-starter mode, there is no power to either wire. It may be that I am not getting the probes in well enough. I can't reach the plug very well. I can probably get the plug off without removing the air conditioning compressor and test to hear if the solenoid is clicking by applying power to the leads. Is this advisable? Is the solenoid 12 volts? Can I hear it engage?
My train of thought here is, if the fuel cut off is working, oil is not leaking into the intake from the turbo oil seal, and the blow by is not excessive, then I will look at injector pump timing. A friend who owns a sawmill with lots of diesel equipment and experience said that diesel engines sound awful when they are running extremely rich. When this engine begins to run on its own, it sounds great, except for what I can only describe as a rod knock. There I said it. I cringe to think about why a gasoline engine might sound like this. Diesels I have little experience with. Anyway, if I can adjust the injection pump timing to less rich I will. But first I need to get all the other things done which might be causing this engine to run on its own. I still need to figure out a way to check the oil seal in the turbo.
This is the most difficult way to trouble shoot; not knowing what the engine was like before the timing gear came loose from the crankshaft, nor knowing what stuff the last mechanic(s) screwed up, nor knowing what happened to the engine while it sat in the Albuquerque desert sands for half a year.
These are all gray areas which I need to narrow down, if not completely eliminate.
In summary I would like advice on:
1> Turbo oil seal testing.
2> Fuel cut off solenoid testing.
3> Injector pump timing.
I know more than I did this morning. However this is not enough to trouble shoot with. Have I left anything out? What else might cause the engine to rev uncontrollably with the key on or off?
Please help if you can.
Sincerely,
Brian Rodgers 
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Brian Rodgers
Internet traffic relayed through DIY solar powered WiFi tower.
www.outfitnm.com
1989 Isuzu Pup gasser
2-86 Isuzu Trooper turbo diesels (1 good 1 bad)
Many gallons of biodiesel since 2005
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JLEMOND
Body Damage is Cool
Reged: 09/21/03
Posts: 1214
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OK ,, HERE WE GO ON THE C223 TURBO IT IS OF COURSE A NON INTERCOOLED DSL ,, ON AN INTERCOOLED DSL THE GENERAL METHOD IS TO TAKE THE PRESSUREIZED AIR FROM THE TURBO OUT PUT THAT IS NORMALLY GOING INTO THE INTAKE MANIFOLD AND RUNNING THIS OUTPUT TO A LARGE MAYBE 2-3 INCH THICK AND MAYBE 10-12 INCH SQUARE ALUMINUM RADIATOR, AND PLACE THIS UNIT IN AN AIR STREAM , THIS IS TO COOL DOWN THE AIR FROM THE TURBO GOING INTO THE ENG ,AND CAN DROP THE INCOMING AIR TEMP BY A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT , AND THE MORE DENSE THE AIR THE MORE IT CAN BE COMPRESSED AND AS A RESULT THE MORE POWER ,, ON THE SIDE OF THE INJ PUMP THE SOLONOID IS NOT,, IT IS MOUNTED ON THE BACK OF THE PUMP UNDER THE INJ LINES , THAT UNIT ON THE SIDE IS THE TACH PICKUP AND IT WILL ONLY PRODUCE ABOUT 1 VOLT, VERY LOW VOLTAGE AND IT OF COURSE WILL FLUCTUATE WITH ENG SPEED , DO NOT APPLY VOLTAGE TO THIS UNIT OR IT WILL KILL IT ,, IF YOU CAN UNPLUG THE SOLONOID ON THE BACK OF THE PUMP AND THE ENG STILL RUNS AT IDEL, THE SOL IS STUCK OPEN OR SOMEONE HAS REMOVED THE PLUNGER, BUT THIS SHOULD NOT CAUSE A RUNAWAY, THE PUMP CANNOT PRODUCE THAT MUCH FUEL ON IT,S ON WITHOUT THE THROTTLE VLV BEING OPENED AND AT CLOSED THROTTLE IT ALLMOST HAS TO HAVE AN OUTSIDE INFLUENCE, AT LEAST AS FAR AS I HAVE EVER SEEN ONE DO ,IT IS ALLMOST ALLWAYS AND OUTSIDE SOURCE OF FUEL INGESTED INTO THE ENG EITHER FROM A BAD TURBO SEAL OR AN OVER FILLED CRANKCASE THAT IS FORCING ENG OIL INTO THE INTAKE SYSTEM ,, IF THE TURBO SEAL HAS GONE AWAY THE INLET OF THE INTAKE MANIFOLD MAY OR MAY NOT BE COVERED IN OIL, AS IT DOESNT TAKE A LOT OF EXCESS FUEL (ENG OIL)TO CAUSE A RUNAWAY , THE INJ PUMP TIMING BY ITSELF SHOULD NOT CAUSE A RUNAWAY, THIS ONLY DETERMINES WHEN THE INJ CYL TAKES PLACE ,BUT CAN HAVE A SIGINIFICANT EFFECT ON ENG NOISE , WHAT YOU ARE PROB, HEARING IS COMMONLY CALLED FUEL KNOCK, ALLSO WHEN A RUNAWAY OCCURS IT SHOULD START SMOKING LIKE A FREIGHT TRAIN AND BE COMPLETELY BLACK ,WITH MAYBE A HINT OF BLUE TINGE TO IT , BUT MIXED WITH DSL FUEL AND ENG OIL IT GENERALLY IS ALL BLACK SMOKE ,, THE PROB, IS THERE IS NO REAL EASY WAY TO SEE THE SEAL LEAKING WITH REMOVING AND DISSASENBLING THE TURBO ITSELF AND INSPECTING THE CENTER UNIT ITSELF AND PRESSUREIZING IT WITH ABOUT 60-80 PSI. OIL PRESS AND SEE IF THE SEAL START LEAKING INTO THE INTAKE PASSAGE,, SOMETHING ELSE TO CHECK, ON PULL THE LOWER OIL DRAIN HOSE FROM THE TURBO WHERE IT SNAKES DOWN TO THE CRANKCASE AND INSTALL A LARGE LONG PIECE OF RUBBER HOSE ON THE DISCHARGE PIPE , FOR THIS TEST A PIECE OF HEATER HOSE WILL WORK AND PUT THE END IN A BUCKET AND START THE ENG AND SEE HOW MUCH DISCHARGE FLOW THERE IS , IT SHOULD REALLY GUSH OUT , IT IS POSSIABLE THAT THE RETURN LINE INTO THE CRANK CASE OR THE HOSE LEADING TO THE CRANKCASE COULD BE RESTRICTED AND CAUSING THE OIL TO BACK UP IN THE TURBO AND CAUSING THE SEAL TO LEAK , IT HAS TO GET AWAY FORM THE TURBO FAST , THE INLET PIPE IS ABOUT 1/8 INCH AND HE OUTLET PIPE IS AT LEAST 5/8 SIZE HOSE .. NOW THERE IS ONE OTHER THING THAT CAN CAUSE THE ENG TO RUNAWAY BUT IT IS NOT TOO COMMON, A COUPLE OF BADLY SCORED UP CYL WALLS , AND THEN THE RINGS CANNOT CONTROL THE OIL AND IT GETS PAST THEM RIGHT INTO THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER AND AWAY WE GO JERRY
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