Jay Ayala
Body Damage is Cool
Reged: 07/15/02
Posts: 1225
Loc: Hillsboro, OR.
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Upon a cold start, my idle raises to about 2000 rpms. It won't stop until it warms up. I can not kick it down by pumping the throttle. It's bugging me more and more every time I drive it. The problem isn't just bugging me because of a high Idle, the problem stems out and affects the transmission.
Yup, the transmission. I posted once about this before, and now I'm posting about it again.
Vehicle:
1989 Dodge Raider 3.0L V6 with Automatic Transmission, no A/C if that mattters any.
Symptoms:
In the morning when I initially start the Raider, I'll sit in the drive way for about 30 seconds to about 1 minute. The engine starts and revs up to about 1900-2000 RPM's. And they stay there. Kicking the throttle doesn't help it any. I know it isn't a carburated model but maybee there is a choke adjustment.
Once I start driving it around to where the engine starts warming up, (you can see the needle pass the little gap just above the COLD on the temp guage,) that is when the idle drops down to about 700 RPM's.
Going back to when the RPM's are at 1900-2000, when I put it in gear, it lurches. Reverse, drive, it doesn't matter. It wants to go as soon as you place it in gear. And with the RPM's that high, it wants to go pretty fast. I have to be really firm with the breaks to control it. I feel I shouldn't have to be this firm on the breaks. Just to give you an idea, I can coast at 20mph, on a flat road idling like this without once touching the throttle.
While the engine is still cold, and I come to a stop sign up the culdesack from my house, like I said earlier, I have to be firm with the breaks. And I notice that once I've come to a complete stop, the engine downsifts and you can feel the torque change.
The Raider only lurches, while the engine is still cold, but I personally think it is related to the higher RPM's. Because as soon as the engine starts to idle at the normal 600-700 RPM's, it doesn't lurch. But I bet if once the engine warms up, and the idle creeps down to 600-700 RPM's, then come to a complete stop and put it in gear. Then raise the idle up to 1900 and shift it into D, the same lurching behavior would happen.
Oh, before I forget. I get a small plume of blue smoke upon initial fire up. I almost forgot about that. I only noticed it because there was a person walking across the street when I started my Raider in the drive way. I was orineted in such a way that I had to look in the rear view mirror on the passenger side to see the person walking. That is when I saw the small blue plume. Does that mean the gas-to-air ratio is too rich?
Recent changes to correct the problem:
I've taken an educated guess to try to solve this issue. I read the trouble shooting in the factory manual for My 1989 Raider for the tranny. So far I've done three main things to try and correct this + regular maintenance.
- First, the manual says that the tranny fluid, when over filled, can cause these symptoms. So I checked, and there was about 2x as much tranny fluid as there needed to be. So I drained out a whole buch of it. I just realized now, that there are too marks on it. One for when the fluid is cold, and the other when the fluid is hot. The truck was cold when I drained it but I only drained enough fluid to the reach hot level. Like I said, I just realized that. I will have to drain more.
- The tranny also was shifting too soon. I looked here on this message forum and someone else had the same problem. I think it was IdahoJack. Anyway, thanks to fasteddy he helped me find the TV cable that needed to be adjusted. It turned out it was adjusted way out of manufactures specifications. So I fixed that.
- I looked into some threads here on the forum to see what I could do about the idle. One thing that kept coming up was ISC. So I cleaned it yesterday. Then I took it out for a test drive. Still, no change. I don't know if there is a choke mechanism of any kind on a Fuel Injection system, like there is on a carburated system, but if there is, how do I adjust it? I know that there is an Idle Stoper, but once the vehicle warms up, it idles at an ideal 600-700 RPM's. So I know that if I adjusted that it wouldn't help me much. Besides, I like the idle when it warms up.
- The Air filter was changed about 1 month ago.
I realize this might be a combination of things. I think it might bee two (2) things that I'm looking to fix.
1. The Idle might be set too high for too long. Can anyone verify that this is normal (not being able to kick the idle down with pumping the throttle)?
2. The tranny fluid might be too high right now and I need to drain more out of it.
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89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Ayala: Pronounciation - Eye All Ahh!
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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i have a 90 montero, mine does the exact same thing. one of the guys from the forum came by the other night to help me with some stuff. we attempted to adjust exactly what you are talking about, with little success. we used the manual to adjust the idle with a digital meter. in our attempts to lower the cold idle things only got worse.
the only thing i wonder about on mine is the fact that my ecu was pretty wasted and i was having problems with it dying. i am going to put the ecu back in tonight and see if that makes a difference. if it doesn't i'm going to try and adjust the idle again. i'v also done most of the same things you have tried with no success. so take comfort in the fact that its not just you.
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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On my Paj V6 3000 Eci, it suddenly jump`s up to around 2000 - 2100 and the same suddenly drop down to "normal" level. My Pajero is a petrol and my workshop told me that it could be some dirt or "bugs" in the sensor`s.. My english is wery bad here, but I`ll try to tell what my idea is:
If you follow the pipe from the air filter, there is a boxs that somehow the air gets throught on it`s way to the engine, it is possible to open it and this hide some sensor. Open this boxs wery carefully and try to clean it. If you do not understand me: try to follow the tube from the air filter. The air filter on my Paj is a wery big thing, and you follow the black tube ahead and you find this sensor box, I`m not 100% sure, but it could be the aswer, so they told me at MMC Norway..
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fasteddy
Web Wheeler
Reged: 01/30/01
Posts: 12703
Loc: Flat Creek, GA
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From the factory manual:
If the engine speed is higher than the standard value even though the speed adjusting screw is fully close, check for any indication that the (fixed SAS position has changed; if there is such an indication, adjust the fixed SAS).
If there is no evidence of a change of position, it is probable that there is leakage resulting from deterioration of the fast-idle air valve so replace the throttle body.
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"If you can't be a good influence, don't worry, you can still be a horrid example."
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Mitch
Roll Me Over
Reged: 04/12/00
Posts: 2812
Loc: ...Oologah...
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What is your oil pressure doing when you first start? Is it higher than what it used to be? When the engine revs decrease to 700 or so and you are driving, is the oil pressure the same or higher than it used to be?
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89 Mitsubishi 2dr. V6, winch, Snorkle w/FF boot, Aisin's, sway bar discos, 15x8 rockcrawlers, 33X12.5 BFG MT's, KV85's, Snorkle install
94 Toyota x-cab, V6, 2.5 lift, 33x10.5 BFG's
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Jay Ayala
Body Damage is Cool
Reged: 07/15/02
Posts: 1225
Loc: Hillsboro, OR.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mitch:
What is your oil pressure doing when you first start? Is it higher than what it used to be? When the engine revs decrease to 700 or so and you are driving, is the oil pressure the same or higher than it used to be?
The oil pressure, now I didn't give that any thought, but heres the thing. Upon initial startup, 2000 RPM's and 30psi on the oil pressure guage. Once it has warmed up, 700 RPM's and about 10-15 psi. Wierd, I never thought about it. I had always assumed it was the nutorious, "Faulty Oil Pressure Sender" coplaint a lot of us GEN 1 owners have. Mitch, can you tell me more about the relation of the oil pressure and high idle? I'm supposing your asking about the oil pressure because you suspect something else right?
quote:
Originally posted by fasteddy:
f the engine speed is higher than the standard value even though the speed adjusting screw is fully close, check for any indication that the (fixed SAS position has changed; if there is such an indication, adjust the fixed SAS).
The high idle is only a problem for the initial 10-15 minutes until the vehicle warms up. Then it is normal and I don't get any idle fluxuation.
If I were to adjust the screw like you say, for fixing the cold start high idle, wouldn't that affect the normal temp normal idle and lower it as well? I like the current idle once it has been given a chance to warm up.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeepir:
My Pajero is a petrol and my workshop told me that it could be some dirt or "bugs" in the sensor`s.
I tried to look for these sensors you are talking about but I couldn't find them. I did like you said and followed the Intake tube back to the throttle body. Like I said in the topic of this thread, I cleaned it and the ISC motor as well. Maybee you can post a picture of what you are refering to.
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Mitch:
Eninge cold, RPM's 2000: Engine oil pressure reads 30 psi
Engine hot, RPM's 700: Engine oil pressure reads 10-15 psi
fasteddy:
If I adjust this (SAS) screw, do you know if it will affect my Hot Idle speed, which is currently 600-700 RPM's? My concern is the idle speed once it warms up. But I want to fix the idle speed when it is cold.
Jeepir:
Can you point these sensors out? Can you post a picture please? So I can attempt cleaning these sensors.
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89 Raider - V6, Automatic, rear LSD, A/C Retrofit, Cruise Control Retrofit.
Ayala: Pronounciation - Eye All Ahh!
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Jay, I don't qualify to give any kind of advise, just wanted to let you know that I have been having the SAME problem ever since I got my 91 Mont. I took it to a dealer and was told that the throttle body needs to be replaced ($914)so no dice there.And for two years now I am just letting the thing worm up a bit before I kick it.Mine's got 175K miles and every ones in a while either tranny or check engine lite comes on and goes off after a few hours of driving...weird. Although runs like a wet dream-smooth and fast.
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hotrod4x5
Rock Warrior
Reged: 05/23/01
Posts: 849
Loc: Riverside, CA, USA
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Escuse my ignorance for your vehicle, but is the idle computer controlled?
My 1990 Chevy Lumina does very weird (lurch, idle flutuates, dies at stops) things if the battery is dead for a long time, the have to reprogram the computer. Also once in it's lifetime, the computer died.
Don't know if your Montero is computer controlled this way.
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Rodney,95 SR 3.5 L, Rancho RS 9000's, 31x10.5-15 Bridgestone Dueler A/T's, OEM Rear locker My Monty in action!
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I have sendt you a few photo`s on private e-mail, and it could happen that your MPS Motor is gone.
At my hometown workshop they told me that this part was possible to replace, but they somehow replaced the whole Throttle position switch..
I really do not know, but try to disconnect the battery for a minute, and then connect it and start it with no exstra idle.. "Do not touch enything, but the starting key", this was a tip that I somehow got at the workshop, but I really do not know..!
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pmontero
Roll Me Over
Reged: 07/12/01
Posts: 3167
Loc: Peachtree City, GA USA
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Jay,
Have you gone through the procedure to adjust the SAS to factory spec and then adjust the throttle position sensor to factory spec? My cold/hot idle was all messed up until I sat down and went through the whole procedure to get them set.
I posted the steps awhile ago and it may be in the archive. If not, it's in the factory service manual.
Powell
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'87 Montero Diesel
'98 Porsche Boxster Electric
and more...
Greasology
NotPetroleum
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