RobG
Roll Me Over
Reged: 09/23/00
Posts: 4277
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC, USA
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my next project on slate is to redo some of the things i don't particularily like about my front setup, mainly moving things forward a bit. This will of course involve redo some of the steering and i thought since you're messing with it, why not look at making it better to. At a minimum, i'm considering switching my tie rod from SREs to TREs becuase i don't like the play that i believe is in the pitman from me drilling out the taper (rather than machining precise bolt size).
From what i gather, the Ford F250 TRE is a left hand 7/8-18 (fine thread). My question is, how do you guys attach this to your custom steering linkage? I can find 7/8 tube inserts, but only in coarse (7/8-14) thread. Are you threading the outside of the tube (what size tubing?) and using the 76-79 waggy adjuster sleeve? Is there another TRE out there, same taper but using a smaller thread, maybe a 3/4-16 or something?
Another question runnign through my head... I know the isuzu taper is backward, causing the TRE to sit on top of the pitman arm. would there be anything to be gained by flipping the pitman arm on the box, now causing the arm to curve up instead of down but the TRE be underneath not on top? i don't have one sitting in front of me to look, but i don't remember there being that much curvature to the Isuzu arm. would this work and could it possibly open up more clearance for steering linkages when SAS?
-Rob
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Robert Gorrell
1995.5 Isuzu Rodeo - SAS'd and SOA'd, sitting on 38x13 TSLs, spooled D60 front, 14bff rear locked by detriot, high steer w/ hydro, dual Isuzu tcases.
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matthew
Body Damage is Cool
Reged: 01/04/00
Posts: 1656
Loc: Richmond, VA
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HERE YOU GO ROB:
LINK
all welded in:
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'93 RS 3.2L - DD/trail build
'97 7.3L Powerstroke - tow rig
'71 FJ40 - V-8, nv4500, atlas, D60, 14B - current build
Owner: http://www.INDEPENDENT4x.com
m-f 9am-6pm EST. 804-550-0480
Edited by mlclark (07/22/06 08:23 PM)
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matthew
Body Damage is Cool
Reged: 01/04/00
Posts: 1656
Loc: Richmond, VA
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stay w/ the 7/8 x 18 tpi
i like to use 1.5" od .25 wall 1" id DOM doe the tie rod
1.25" od .120 wall 1" id DOM for the drag link
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'93 RS 3.2L - DD/trail build
'97 7.3L Powerstroke - tow rig
'71 FJ40 - V-8, nv4500, atlas, D60, 14B - current build
Owner: http://www.INDEPENDENT4x.com
m-f 9am-6pm EST. 804-550-0480
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RobG
Roll Me Over
Reged: 09/23/00
Posts: 4277
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC, USA
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Quote:
i like to use 1.5" od .25 wall 1" id DOM doe the tie rod
1.25" od .120 wall 1" id DOM for the drag link
Those just happen to be the two sizes of DOM we have laying around the shop and what i was hoping to use... sweet!
matt, do you make those special? 7/8-18 sure is a hard size to come across.
-Rob
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Robert Gorrell
1995.5 Isuzu Rodeo - SAS'd and SOA'd, sitting on 38x13 TSLs, spooled D60 front, 14bff rear locked by detriot, high steer w/ hydro, dual Isuzu tcases.
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randii
4x4Wire.com Managing Editor Emeritus
Reged: 08/02/99
Posts: 9030
Loc: Fair Oaks, CA USA
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Quote:
...i'm considering switching my tie rod from SREs to TREs becuase i don't like the play that i believe is in the pitman from me drilling out the taper (rather than machining precise bolt size).
BTDT, Rob. That slop was what provoked me to first sit down with all the dimensional TRE cross-reference tables to come up with what fit. When I was first researching this, I used the measured angles and specifications from the Isuzu center link to identify a tie rod end that would bolt right up to the stock taper in the Isuzu pitman arm. I found a TRE with the same taper and pitch, but designed for a thicker pitman arm. This latter dimension is easier to work around -- you seat the tapered parts together (you get full engagement of the Isuzu pitman taper, there's just a bit more length to the Ford TRE taper) using a washer between the nut and the pitman arm. The washer is compressed when you pull the TRE into the matching taper of the pitman arm. Essentially, all steering loads are taken by the taper interface -- the castellated TRE nut and added washer just clamp that interface together.
Quote:
From what i gather, the Ford F250 TRE is a left hand 7/8-18 (fine thread).
Yup, but the taper dimensions varies across years, you need the left-hand threaded tie rod end off a 1967-72 F250 3/4 ton Ford 4WD.
LINK
Quote:
My question is, how do you guys attach this to your custom steering linkage?
I just had my drag link tapped to match those threads.... Marlin Czajkowski ( www.MarlinCrawler.com ) and Scott Ellinger ( www.Rockstomper.com ) both have that tap. Matt Brown ( www.Independent4x.com )also has weld-in threaded tube inserts. With a right-threaded end and a left-threaded end at opposite ends of the drag link, the drag link tube itself can be rotated for adjustment.
Quote:
... I know the isuzu taper is backward, causing the TRE to sit on top of the pitman arm. would there be anything to be gained by flipping the pitman arm on the box, now causing the arm to curve up instead of down but the TRE be underneath not on top?
I think that any gain in TRE position would be offset by the loss in position inherent in the curved arm (there's enough curve to make it almost the same net height). If you really need that taper flipped, consider drilling it and having a damn good welder burn in one of Front Range Offroad Fab ( www.FrontRangeOffroadFab.com ) or Rockstomper's (see above for URL) tapered inserts facing the way you want it. FWIW, this is not an uncommon part and more vendors stock it, but IMHO, few folks posess the welding skills and equipment to do this job right, and if at all possible, I'd avoid welding on the pitman arm.
Still another solution, if you want to weld the pitman, is to run a substantially larger TRE, and have your pitman arm retapered from the bottom. Get to a good auto parts store and ask for the Quay-Norris or Moog steering guide. In the back of it, you'll find a dimensional cross-reference guide. This is what I used to identify the Ford TRE in the first place -- you can do the same by leveraging the large dimension of the stock Isuzu taper as the small dimension of the taper you seek. You can back all of this out of the guide by starting with the Isuzu part and working backwards. Your goal will be to insure that the taper on the new TRE will be engaged for the full thickness of the pitman arm. 'Extra' taper protruding from either side of the TRE is acceptable, but you want to make sure not to have too much levering out the TRE side... the flip side, where the castle nut and cotter pin goes, that's where I put the washer (described above).
Randii
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Randy Burleson
4x4Wire Managing Editor Emeritus
Mongrel Isuzu Amigo
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RobG
Roll Me Over
Reged: 09/23/00
Posts: 4277
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC, USA
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Quote:
and if at all possible, I'd avoid welding on the pitman arm.
I assume because this opens up the whole debate on a structure weld from steel to cast iron? the stock pitman arm is indeed cast, correct?
-Rob
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Robert Gorrell
1995.5 Isuzu Rodeo - SAS'd and SOA'd, sitting on 38x13 TSLs, spooled D60 front, 14bff rear locked by detriot, high steer w/ hydro, dual Isuzu tcases.
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randii
4x4Wire.com Managing Editor Emeritus
Reged: 08/02/99
Posts: 9030
Loc: Fair Oaks, CA USA
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Quote:
I assume because this opens up the whole debate on a structure weld from steel to cast iron?
More a generalized elevated concern that steering parts be well beyond failure, based on the consequences (total loss of control).
Quote:
the stock pitman arm is indeed cast, correct?
I actually think they are stamp-forged, from looking at the parting marks on the arm.
Regardless, I go out of my way to avoid modifying a pitman arm (move the steering box, raise the draglink, etc.) I guess the stock ones *are* made by mortals, but I know a certified welder who will not weld a pitman, even though he freely admits that he could do it safely. His take: why risk his livelihood from million-dollar lawsuit on a hundred dollar part?
A welded pitman arm might indeed work forever, or it might fail -- our luck, as a hobby, would be that it would fail as you careened downhill toward an orphaned nuns convention -- all on the worlds' slowest news day, with full coverage by print, radio, and television.  Even with the relative rarity of orphaned nuns, I think the chance of failure is too high to take the risk... even before you stack it up against the consequences of failure. Some people may get away with this for years, even in tuff truck competition, but IMHO, putting that sort of combination on the street is unacceptable. YMMV, but that's *MY* opinion.
Randii (steers away from nuns) 
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Randy Burleson
4x4Wire Managing Editor Emeritus
Mongrel Isuzu Amigo
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houlster
Isuzu Moderator
Reged: 12/29/99
Posts: 2394
Loc: Mesa, AZ
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Quote:
Quote:
and if at all possible, I'd avoid welding on the pitman arm.
I assume because this opens up the whole debate on a structure weld from steel to cast iron? the stock pitman arm is indeed cast, correct?
-Rob
Welding on a pitman arm (most are forged steel BTW, not cast iron or cast steel) should be avoided in general, but I don't see a problem with welding in a tapered insert. What's tricky is cutting an arm in half and flipping the end and/or re-welding at a different angle. The strength of the arm is directly related to how good your welding was, and if proper car was taken during the weld process to not destroy the heat treating of the arm.
For the insert though, you're drilling a hole in the end and inserting the taper, preferably reaming the hole to size so the insert needs to be pressed in. The weld is relatively light to hold the insert in place and doesn't carry much stress. The stress is carried by the fit between the insert and it's hole. Even if the weld failed completely, you would not loose steering as the insert is still captured by the TRE on one side of the arm, and the nut on the other. The worst is that it'd get suddenly sloppy, and that's only if the fit between the insert and the hole isn't very good.
--Dan
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matthew
Body Damage is Cool
Reged: 01/04/00
Posts: 1656
Loc: Richmond, VA
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if i'm not mistaken....i think Scott (rockstomper) welded up a pitman arm for Sweater (mike bantz).......something very flat and using a canabilized stock pitman arm....................not endorsing it so do not  me up on this....just mentioning it.
Maybe mike can chime in w/ some pics
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'93 RS 3.2L - DD/trail build
'97 7.3L Powerstroke - tow rig
'71 FJ40 - V-8, nv4500, atlas, D60, 14B - current build
Owner: http://www.INDEPENDENT4x.com
m-f 9am-6pm EST. 804-550-0480
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RobG
Roll Me Over
Reged: 09/23/00
Posts: 4277
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC, USA
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Does anyone know offhand or where to find info on strength and more importantly maximum operating angles of TRE's (specifically the F250 ES308)?
i know i want to use the F250 TRE at the pitman arm end of the tie rod, but should i keep the SRE at the other end or look at switching to TRE there too. My hi-steer arms are setup for SRE's all around (5/8" holes, no taper), so i would either need to reem or use a weldin tapered insert if i decided to go with a TRE there. Suppose i could buy new arms, but i'm not looking for that expense right now.
regardless, i was wondering how the TRE's compare in anglurity to the SRE's i'm using right now. The SRE's i use are a 2 piece 5/8 x 3/4-16 with a static load of 27k lbs and misalignment of 26*. Can i get more angle out of the TRE? or should i just go with simplicity for now and stick with an SRE there?
I will be keeping my drag link SRE's for the time being.
-Rob
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Robert Gorrell
1995.5 Isuzu Rodeo - SAS'd and SOA'd, sitting on 38x13 TSLs, spooled D60 front, 14bff rear locked by detriot, high steer w/ hydro, dual Isuzu tcases.
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