| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/08/08 11:16 AM |
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PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Finally finished and more Horses!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks all for input (and Flyboy)!
I recommend that you all consider the headers.....and it sounds better too!
I plan to put some heat wrap around the Pipes......EGR thing was closed off. What a difference in performance!
No CELS At All!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/08/08 11:59 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Evidence of damage to the Cast Manifold:
Can't tell by the PICS...The exhaust channel seams are cracked and leak!
Glad I had the Prob. taken care of!
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/08/08 12:12 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Question........
Does having headers SAVE or Expend more fuel?????????
Not sure cause some people say the oposite....
Thanks in advance---Mike!
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/08/08 12:28 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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whoever did that welding isn't going to win any awards! I am a beginner welder and I could have done a better job....
but as long as it doesn't leak I guess it should be ok.
and a far as better or worse fuel economy, depends on your happy foot (gas pedal). Also headers are kind a tricky, you might make more power in one area , and lose it in another.
and since they are custom, you will have to just measure the MPG you get and compare it.
I had a 2.3 ranger and I put a header on that. it ended up being doggier on the bottom end but mid to top end was a decent gain, made it more fun to drive.
also depends on the rest of your exhaust system. I talked to a local muffler shop who has been in business for 20 years, not a chain store either. and he told me that most of the time when people do exhaust work, they end up losing power from either going to big on the pipe diameter, or not having mandrel bends, and back pressure is important. He said there is much more to it than most people realize.
but I hope it does more good than bad for you! cool to see custom stuff.
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/08/08 12:34 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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I wanted to add that I have made 2 complete exhaust systems, 1 on an rx7 and one on a nissan maxima. did the bending and welding myself, and it was not the most fun job as I did not have a bender like the shops, I was using a conduit bender borrowed from an electrician. But it made nice bends!
The welds on yours look like they are on top of the metal, not really burned in. Especially on the header flange where the metal is thicker, should have been cake to get a nice weld there, as you can burn it into the thicker metal and it will flow to the thinner. but thats just my 2 cents.
both my systems seemed to gain good lower end to mid range, and then went back to about stock, possibly less on top end.
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/08/08 12:40 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Hey Jeybur!....Glad and thanks for your Advice....
I don't weld...Hence I paid!
Heard that you hooked up with Everet!
I am taking courses on welding...Everet don't weld either
The welds that I got are tight!
Gets the job done
What kinda welding do you do?
| Lou |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/08/08 12:40 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
Question........
Does having headers SAVE or Expend more fuel?????????
There are no miracles. All devices that allow more exhaust to go out and, conversely or in addition, to ease more air to enter will need more fuel to match the air flow. The primary goal is to get more hp, and hp needs fuel...unless you do not exploit the extra available hp...but then , why would one go through all of that trouble...
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/08/08 12:42 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Got it thanks!
| Everet |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 01/08/08 01:36 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Your right I can't weld to good. Mine would look about like the weld job you got!!
xoxoLet us know about the MPG!
Everet
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/08/08 01:50 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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looks good hydra. bout time you got to it lol
jaybur those welds were done on top. hydra if they hold cool but i would grind them down and reweld them. at the time i was playing with bends and straits for a turbo so i just tacked it up enough to hold the turbos weight. then get yourself a can of vht exhaust paint and shine that mofo up.
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/08/08 03:33 PM |
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Will do!!!!
| Iron |
| (Rock Warrior) |
| 01/08/08 07:05 PM |
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Quote:
I plan to put some heat wrap around the Pipes......
If you are talking about header wrap, I wouldn't recommend it, those welded joints would crack within a year, go for a ceramic coating, cost would be about the same.
I've used header wrap for a while, while it does make a marked improvement in noise and engine bay temps, I've seen no noticeable gains in HP. I've also seen my fair share of cracked headers over the years too, the header wrap tends to trap the heat inside the metal making the welds over time brittle, a few good bumps and you got yourself a cracked header. I stopped using it a few years back, and only have it on one of cars in my mini fleet today.
Just my 2 cents or 1.987 cents US
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/08/08 08:48 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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dith the wrap idea. not good for a daily driver. use the vhy ehxaust paint you wont be dissapointed.
| Yankee_Tim |
| (Wheeler) |
| 01/09/08 07:35 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
go for a ceramic coating, cost would be about the same.
X2. Top end headers have ceramic coating. This will significantly keep radiant heat in the engine compartment down. And does help in the rust department too. Be sure to clean up those boogers with a whizzer wheel first.
Rule of thumb on headers. The shorter the header from flange to collector, the more top end HP at the expense of low end torque, while the longer header provides more low end torque at the expense of top end HP.
Whichever, proper port matching is critical. I've seen some makers (e.g. Doug Thorley) produce a header that had round ports, while the head had retangular ports.
This will cause turbulance, and on the exhaust side, turbulance in the enemy.
Pick your poison
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/09/08 08:13 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Flyboy's original design/idea was shorter headers. BUT due to adjustments made they had to be lengthened. I did not know about lenghth making that much of a difference (Thanks TIM). I suppose that they should halve been a little bit shorter.
I have the rest of Flyboy's exhaust I think they are 2 1/2" or even larger GOtto measure. I wonder if the pipes will be too BIG for lower RPM issues??????? Any ideas???
| Dave Scott |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 01/09/08 08:19 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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i don't know about 2-1/2 being too big, but i would have stuck with 2 or 2-1/4 just to be sure. as far as the wrap vs. paint vs. powder coat? i know for a fact that the paint burns and smokes and that powder coat turns dark colors and eventually turns flat and powdery and flakes off. the wrap is better for a vehicle that has an open engine compartment and doesn't sit in traffic too long. as lame as it may sound, best bet for a DD is chrome or some other color plating. if it isn't done well, it can flake off too, so make sure you get it to a good shop.
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/09/08 11:36 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
whoever did that welding isn't going to win any awards! I am a beginner welder and I could have done a better job....
but as long as it doesn't leak I guess it should be ok.
I went this morning and talked to the guy who welded it. I gave him feed back on what all of you had told me. He said that a Tig weld would have been better and that STEEL is very difficult to weld.
He further stated that Wraps would be the best route to go. And that the purpose of wraps is to heat the headers for more efficient/rapid exhaust flow <Not To Cool The Engine Bay> (explained in complicated science theory)....
Also, he reccommended aggressive research on finding programs that would allow me to remove both CAT Converters---without throwing a code and compromising performance.
Help guys with this please.....I KNOW THAT SOMEONE OUT THERE HAS HAD TO HAVE DONE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone here has mentioned of a GM program and plug for the second O2 sensor a while back. I think that we are almost there in terms of improving or rides (where Exhaust is concerned)!
Slightly OT: I still have an electric fan and spal in the box------Another project in itself!
That guy from Oklahoma did it well a while back...Forget his name now......But he did Awesome!!!
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 11:51 AM |
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iirc the pipe is 2 1/2 at the cat and reduces to 2 1/4 for the rest this way it handels the push from the engine thru the restrictive cat and flows normal the rest of the way. i do this on all my cars.
2nd stay away from the guy that welded those pipes. from what he said he is a moron. im an ironworker. you want to know how easy it is to weld steel come visit some of my jobs. i have mig welded complete chassis with no problems and no cracks. 3rd do not wrap that for a daily driver. the wrap works good but will melt the pipe at temperature for long periods of time. i have seen it myself. i have had ceramic coated headers and its ok but to me they chip easy and arent worth the money. i have used the vht exhaust paint many times with great sucess. cheaper then ceramic but does the same thing.
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 12:32 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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steel is difficult to weld? thats crazy, aluminum is tricky, how is steel so hard to weld? $100 for that weld job is also crazy.
and removing the cat has been proven to have either 0 gains or maybe 1hp and at the cost of more pollution. it is a waste of time to get rid of the cat, especially on a stock motor. once you turbo it and have 400 hp out of it then you may want to run a high flow cat.
unless your cat is clogged (you'd have signs if it was ) then it is not going to benefit you enough to make it worthwhile.
Your best bet is to find an actual welding shop who has experience to weld stuff up. Its one thing to tack it in place yourself, but another to fully weld it so crappy like that, he is clueless on welding.
I agree on NOT doing the header wrap, be a miracle if those welds hold up the way they are, dont add to the issue by wrapping them , trapping moisture on the metal.
I would stop going to that guy for advice!
when you weld metal, you get dis-coloration near the weld because it gets very hot, there is hardly any on those headers, meaning he welded on top of the metal, not burned into the metal.
think of it as using glue to hold 2 pieces of wood together, would you glue the ends or would you put the ends together and glue the outside edge?
in order to get nice welds the metal should have a gap so that the weld can penetrate into the metal completely. looks like he put them tightly together and then welded. And so many spots where he globbed the weld on, obviously does not know how to weld.
the first few times I welded, I used my dads 220 welded and some scrap metal, I had no advice , just wanted to try it, and my welds looked like the ones on your headers.
later on I was taught by a welder who had been doing it for 11 years. and once I was taught the right way to weld, I never looked back, and he was impressed on how fast I caught on.
there is still tons I could learn, I have never done tig or aluminum, nor arc welding. just mig. and structural welding also has a different technique.
but as a beginner myself, ( I call myself a beginner but probably better than most beginners!) I can say that I would be ashamed to hand you the header if it looked like that.
just my .02
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/09/08 12:47 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Don't comment about this part....I paid $165.oo
Anyway, I won't do the wraps thing as everyone has so authenticated!
Will Prolly do that VH thing that DOn was talking about.
I don't know about the cosmetic side of that guys weld....But I bet it still lasts a couple of years.
I see improvement when I drive and it seems that the gas is burning a bit faster.
I forgot to mention that i have the ported throttle body that I need to put on!
Let me get a pic of that posted in a sec........
I wish that I possessed knowledge on welding and the like. Well in due time my friends.
I guess in due time.
Jaybur---Are you sure of the o-1 HP gais from lack of the CATS??????
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 12:59 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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yea it is not going to benefit you , seriously!
here is a pic of nice welds. I tried to find a close up , but this was best I could find for now.
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 01:03 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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and this is a good article for you to read, has pictures and it is based on a 4 cylinder engine.
http://www.importtuner.com/features/0610impp_catalytic_converter_removal/index.html
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/09/08 01:27 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
yea it is not going to benefit you , seriously!
here is a pic of nice welds. I tried to find a close up , but this was best I could find for now.
Call me slow............But of course those are not for a Sportage right?
And yes, TRULY NICE Welds!!!
What material/Composition/Alloy is that??????????????????
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 01:42 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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those are for a civic, but I was just searching for something to give you a reference to what they welds SHOULD look like!
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 02:01 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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there is a cat on that pipe i sent you. its 100% perfect high flow cat from catco. never had a problem with them i just like to go a size up for cat to pipe. usually thats the first bend in my exhaust and most of my cars are boosted so it can pass larger amounts of air quicker
| Dave Scott |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 01/09/08 03:20 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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this is what a NICE weld looks like:
was gonna post a pic of mine, but it's been a long time since i've taken a pic and the old ones aren't as good as the new ones, so, i'll get back to you guys on that....
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/09/08 03:24 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Holy Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That looks Hot!!!
| Calappoyas |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 10:30 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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I weld on steel everyday at work. I repair saws at a sawmill, So our welds have to be soft and flexible = extra work with annealing.
Those welds are only on surface. welding is a lot like sewing, although I like the glue reference too! And I'll bet you have pin-hole leaks now around the bead.
But, now my interest in theis topic has been piqued. Thinking about doing this myself.
| Everet |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 01/09/08 11:07 PM |
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Dave, Looks like a TIG weld.
and TIG is beautiful, however most muffler welding is MIG and looks more like the welding on the pics from jaybur. It looks like the guy tried to stick weld them. I think that whoever did the welding for hydra shouldn't be charging too much.
Everet
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/09/08 11:39 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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looks like mig to me, I can lay down beads like that too
| Nukeiridium |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 01/09/08 11:43 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Damn I really need to start learning to weld.
And buy a welder.
| Calappoyas |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/10/08 12:09 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
Damn I really need to start learning to weld.
And buy a welder.
Remeber, stick welders have hot rods!
| Nukeiridium |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 01/10/08 12:46 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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I actually HAVE a wire feed welder but it can't do stainless or other exotic metal, I am not sure if it's useful for the steel that the Sportage frame is made of.
| jaybur |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/10/08 01:18 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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sure you can use it on the sportage frame, its just steel, not stainless. and welding stainless requires using the "stainless" wire spool. And aluminum should be possible too, but but it would be pretty tough unless you had it really set up for aluminum. I watched my boss weld aluminum, he was good at that too, but you can burn through faster so you have to be quick and precise.
He also welded stainless which as I stated just required changing the spool to a stainless wire.
| DamKia |
| (Kia Moderator) |
| 01/10/08 01:59 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
I actually HAVE a wire feed welder but it can't do stainless or other exotic metal, I am not sure if it's useful for the steel that the Sportage frame is made of.
What, cheese????
Seriously, it is very soft steel.
| Nukeiridium |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 01/10/08 02:31 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Umm are you sure about the stainless thing? The welder isn't a MIG or TIG or anything, just a wire-feed electric welder with no gas tanks or anything special.
I need to practice with it though and see if I can use it for some simple stuff like shock mounts or bumpstop mounts etc, it could be real handy if I was any good...
I was thinking I would buy a book on how to weld or something, whta do you guys think? I dunno if I have time to take a class.
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/10/08 07:27 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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what brand is it. chances are it can be easily converted to mig you just need to buy the gas adapter. should have a hookup plugged in the rear of it.
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/10/08 10:37 AM |
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| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/10/08 10:40 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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You can see there off that Camaro...There seems to be no welds.
It looks like it is bolted direct. What Coating did you apply??
(Heat sheilds) what are those???
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/10/08 10:44 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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those are tig welded. they are covered with ceramic coating that sux and is coming off.
| Dave Scott |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 01/10/08 10:49 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
Dave, Looks like a TIG weld.
and TIG is beautiful, however most muffler welding is MIG and looks more like the welding on the pics from jaybur. It looks like the guy tried to stick weld them. I think that whoever did the welding for hydra shouldn't be charging too much.
Everet
yeah, it is. TIG is PERTY. i prefer flux-core wire-feed, even though it leaves that powdery residue all over everything. it burns hotter, penetrates much better and puddles nicer so that you don't have a big wad of booger all over your joint. here's two of my old ones and after this weekend, i'll put up a couple newer shots....
of course that's after being cleaned-up with a wire wheel on a grinder.
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/10/08 11:07 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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WoW!
Dave, if you opened a Muffler Shop here in the RIO GRANDE VALLEY you would prolly be rich soon!!!
The guy that welded my stuff is from south of the border (and has been welding for 20 years).!
I know and he still sucks!!
His specialty is frames and structure though ....that is his craft:
He welded my side steps!
| wyodriver4 |
| (Getting the Wheeling Fever) |
| 01/10/08 10:42 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
I actually HAVE a wire feed welder but it can't do stainless or other exotic metal, I am not sure if it's useful for the steel that the Sportage frame is made of.
technicaly you can do stainless, but if you do it will rust along your welds.
| Dave Scott |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 01/11/08 08:24 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
I actually HAVE a wire feed welder but it can't do stainless or other exotic metal, I am not sure if it's useful for the steel that the Sportage frame is made of.
just load it with .035 flux core wire and you can weld the frame easy. as far as stainless? who wants to weld that anyway?
| Nukeiridium |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 01/11/08 12:29 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:Quote:
I actually HAVE a wire feed welder but it can't do stainless or other exotic metal, I am not sure if it's useful for the steel that the Sportage frame is made of.
just load it with .035 flux core wire and you can weld the frame easy. as far as stainless? who wants to weld that anyway?
Hmm... good point.. stainless isn't much use on our rigs is it?
| Yankee_Tim |
| (Wheeler) |
| 01/11/08 01:10 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
they are covered with ceramic coating that sux and is coming off.
thats a result of poor surface prep before the ceramicote is applied. if done correctly, it lasts a long time. Top end headers are usually ceramic, both inside and out. That's real pricey.
I have Calmini Tri-Y on my Sammy, in ceramic, and it's lasted 7 years and is flawless, and thats in the NY salt belt.
I got a Sidekick with Tri-Y stainless header. It's a work of art and rust free.
it don't mean a thing if it ain't got some bling.
| flyboy367 |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 01/11/08 01:45 PM |
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they are top end headers. they cost me $800 2 years ago when i got them for my nova. they were on it for 5 runs then sat in storage till i got the camaro. been on for 8000 miles and are crapping out. i contacted the company and they said to send them back and they would recoat them for free but its to much of a pain in the ass.
| Nukeiridium |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 01/11/08 01:46 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Just take them off and send them in, drive it without headers while you're waiting for them
| Dave Scott |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 01/11/08 01:59 PM |
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Quote:
Just take them off and send them in, drive it without headers while you're waiting for them
(talking to Hydra here)
i still think chrome is the best idea, but those welds need cleaning up first. hey, send them to me, i'll put that sh.t back together right. there may be some bumper shops round here still doing chrome, too, could be cheeeep.
| Yankee_Tim |
| (Wheeler) |
| 01/11/08 04:02 PM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
i still think chrome is the best idea, but those welds need cleaning up first.
The Calmini Tri-Y and the Doug Thorley are the same design, except the Calmini is port-matched and the O2 bung is in the right place. DT chromes theirs, while Calmini comes in cerm or S/S. All the chrome stuff I see from DT turns blue then peels. Doesn't like the salt at all either.
A lot has to do with the prep. Personally, I think nickel coating looks hot, but pricey.
And your right on the welds. No offense, but I've seen gum stuck under a school desk that looked more like a "stack of dimes" than those welds do.
I agree with Dave, to me, they look porous and might be leaking. Watch carefully for carbon streaks, sure sign of leakage.
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/12/08 10:22 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
I agree with Dave, to me, they look porous and might be leaking. Watch carefully for carbon streaks, sure sign of leakage.
Actually Calapouas <NEVER CAN GET HIS TITLE RIGHT> said that there prolly is pin holes.
Will check it out and see if there are leaks (now I'm a little worried)!
I still have the Ported Throttle from "Flyboy" to get done!
I wish I could do TIG Welds like some of you guys.....
After I incur a prob. Dave, U will be the first person that I contact!
Shoot, You are only like 3 hours away!!!
| Hydra747 |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 01/12/08 10:25 AM |
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Re: PORTED HEADERS (pics...)
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Quote:
Just take them off and send them in, drive it without headers while you're waiting for them
Good advice....But prolly to much trouble to put the orig. crap back on and wait!!!!
