| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/24/12 04:53 PM |
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Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Well, I've gotten to the point where I am completely stumped with my truck. So before giving in and taking it to a shop, I'm posting up as a last ditch effort for some advice/direction on where to go with my truck. It's been an ongoing struggle since last July when I bought my 95SR. If you are interest in the whole saga, click here , and here. Warning, both threads are LONG.
To catch up, here is where I am at. My short block was trashed. #4 piston was about to come apart, and the crank was bad. One of the journals was .040 out. A core crank was obtained and reground, and the entire short block rebuilt by RPM performance in Utah. Here is a list of what I've put into the engine since then.
Re-manufactured heads from Clearwater.
New water pump
New oil pump
New OEM gasket kit
New head bolts and washers
New torque converter bolts
Basically new tensioner, pulleys and timing belt (They had only a few hours on them before I pulled the engine)
New alternator
New crank sensor and blade
Spark plugs are virtually new, as they also only had a few minutes of run time on them prior to pulling the engine.
After re-assembly, my good friends in the AZ crew helped me drop the engine back in and get it all bolted up.
After some trial and error of the engine not running, I found that I had swapped the cams on the passenger side. After correcting the error, the truck will start and idle fairly smooth. I hear some lifter tick on the driver side. I attribute that to not having built up sufficient oil pressure to pump the lifters up. I also hear some knocking under the truck, but I can't pinpoint if it is an exhaust leak or worse.
Here's where I am stuck. If I put the engine in gear, turn on the AC, or turn the wheels (basically put any kind of load on the engine) it will idle very low and want to die. I've changed the ISC with a known good ISC from a running truck. No change.
Acceleration sitting in park is very slow. Meaning when stepping on the accelerator, the engine RPM is very slow to rise. Like it is struggling to rev.
I took the truck for a very short trip around the block. Same thing when in gear. The truck struggles to rev, and is knocking to the point of sounding like a diesel. Have to keep revving the engine to keep in from stalling at a stop, and it has NO power. I parked it after that to not cause any (further) damage.
This was a couple of weeks ago. I pretty much walked away in disgust and left it alone for a couple of weeks to give my mind a rest.
I've discussed at length with some of the AZ crew, with no definitive ideas. Timing is spot on, and I'm obviously getting fuel and spark, since it will idle, but little else.
So, short of taking this to a shop, or just setting it on fire, I figured some fresh ideas may help. I've got a lot of blood, sweat, and money into this thing, and I'd really like to finally to be able to drive my truck that I bought some 7 months ago. Thanks for reading my long winded cry for help. Thanks in advance to any ideas/assistance you guys can give.
Jay
| sasnydley |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 02/24/12 11:09 PM |
Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Bad fuel/, Bad fuel pump? Bad fuel pressure sensor? Intake leak? Coil packs bad under load? my montero runs like crap when 1st started cold-(intake leak somewhere) But runs very smooth when warmed up. Did you replace both sensors? Cranks and cam? Are you 100% sure the timing is right?
| TainterRacing |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/24/12 11:14 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Maybe the cam timming is all messed up...?
What compresion is the motor I would do a comp test ad see.
| mxmikie |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 02/24/12 11:25 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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check the 10 cent hose on the fuel pump fuel pump hose
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/24/12 11:58 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Some more info:
Quote:
Bad fuel/, Bad fuel pump? Bad fuel pressure sensor? Intake leak? Coil packs bad under load? my montero runs like crap when 1st started cold-(intake leak somewhere) But runs very smooth when warmed up. Did you replace both sensors? Cranks and cam? Are you 100% sure the timing is right?
Bad fuel. Not sure. Tank was darn near empty, and I put in 3 gallons of fresh fuel. Fuel pump? I don't know, but I can hear it cycle when the key is turned to ACC. There is no schrader valve on the high pressure side, but I cracked the fuel line and fuel shoots out when cranking. I'm not sure about a fuel pressure sensor? Or do you mean regulator? I didn't check either. Didn't check the coil packs. only tested for spark with a timing light. Crank sensor is new, cam sensor is not, but was good prior to tear down. 100% sure timing is right. (Had to do it 3 times to get it right)
Quote:
Maybe the cam timming is all messed up...?
What compresion is the motor I would do a comp test ad see.
Have not done a compression test yet. Didn't see the need with everything being new, but will put it on the list. Maybe something happened with the cams being swapped on the passenger side.
Quote:
check the 10 cent hose on the fuel pump fuel pump hose
Two suggestions for fuel system, so I will put it on the list also. I've looked in the FSM, but don't see a spec for static or running fuel pressure, or a way to check fuel pressure on the high pressure line. Is there a way to put a schrader valve in line to check with a gauge?
Thank you all for the suggestions so far.
Jay
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 02/25/12 08:07 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Easy stuff:
Test the air fuel ratio with the sensor in the middle of your face. Does the exhaust at idle smell like gas, or is it acrid and biting to the nose?
Is the wire connected to the power steering pump?
Remove solenoid wire from starter and remove fuel supply line from fuel rail and put in graduated container. Turn key to start for a measured 10sec. Report fuel quantity pumped.
Pinch fuel return line shut and try engine power test again.
Harder stuff:
Buy new fuel line from hard line to fuel rail. Take old line and cut in two, and insert tee with schrader and test fuel pressure. 41-46psi is my recollection of correct - check me.
Do the easy stuff and report back, and we'll go from there.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/26/12 02:59 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Thanks fasteddy. I'm finishing up my irrigation system this weekend, but will do these tests and report back. The wire is connected to the power steering pump, but I will check the wire for integrity.
One more thing I forgot to add. I pulled the cat off to see if it was plugged. I can still see light through the catalyst, and there was no change with the cat removed.
EDIT: Ok, here are my results:
Using the sensor in the middle of my face, there is a slight smell of fuel at idle. Not strong, but what I would consider normal.
Removed solenoid wire and separated fuel line at the main fuel line connector at the firewall. Pumped gas into a cup via a hose for a count of 10 seconds by stopwatch. Measured JUST slightly over 400ml.
Pinched the return line off with a towel and a set of needle nose vise grips. No change in engine power.
I noticed this time around the check engine light came on, which was not on before. Going to search how to check codes on this thing to see what it pulls up.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/26/12 04:40 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Ok, so I think I've got the codes right. I grounded terminal 1 on the diagnostic plug and watched the check engine light for long flashes first, then short. I'm coming up with these, but found the codes via Google, so I don't know if they are correct or not.
12 - Air flow sensor fault
13 - Intake temp sensor fault
22 - Crank angle sensor fault (This would suck, as I have a virtually new sensor in there. I don't quite understand this one)
25 - Barometric pressure sensor fault
Looks like I've got my work cut out for me still. Any insight?
| TainterRacing |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/26/12 04:47 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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12 - Air flow sensor fault
13 - Intake temp sensor fault
25 - Barometric pressure sensor fault
Thats all mass air stuff. I would look in to it.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/26/12 05:40 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Alright. Stupid mistake. I didn't have the MAF connector plugged in when I started it the last time. Strange thing is, it makes no difference if it is plugged in or not as far as the truck running the way it is right now.
Plugged the MAF back in. Pulled the -neg battery cable for 10 minutes to clear codes. It started somewhat reluctantly and idled for 10 minutes. No check engine light. Back to square one.
I turned on the AC and the idle will adjust somewhat. Bogs the engine down like its going to die, and then slowly compensates, but it idles very low. I'm wondering if I have my idle speed set correctly. Time to read some more.
| TainterRacing |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/26/12 06:21 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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It sounds like maybe cam timming off? Did you try a compresion test yet? Do one cly on each head. Should be very qick to do.
| JohnnyBfromPeoria |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 02/26/12 06:39 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Quote:
Did you try a compresion test yet? Do one cly on each head. Should be very qick to do.
Not on an SR. Intake plenum has to come off.
Fingers crossed for a quick, simple and cheap fix for you, Jay.
John B.
| TainterRacing |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/26/12 06:44 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Ya I realized that after I said that . I have not worked much on the newer motors even tho I have one I just pulled it out. LOL
| TOASTY |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 02/27/12 11:36 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I was just thinking of texting you and asking how you were doing on this, anyway double check your plug wires with an operational truck before you take it to a shop. For some reason wires getting swapped seems to happen with that motor sometimes.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/27/12 04:54 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Yeah, still having trouble TOASTY. I'm 99% sure the plug wires are right. I marked them with the cylinder number before I removed them from the engine, but I never tested them.
I'm also 99% sure the timing is correct, since I had to do it a few times to get the marks lined up right. But there's that 1% of doubt since it seems to keep coming up.
Didn't have time to run any compression tests this weekend. Just the little poking around that I managed to slip in between landscaping and kids. I should have some time this upcoming weekend to dig a little deeper.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/27/12 07:12 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Got a chance to look at a few things real quick when I got home.
Coil/plug wires are all correctly routed. All coils tested at .9ohms (my meter wont go any lower than a single decimal place), and I tested the plug wire from #4 to #1 at 17.7K ohms. Coil values may be SLIGHTLY high from the spec of .85 but seem to be close enough to not cause issue. Can't seem to find my gauge OR my remote starter right now, so I'll have to dig them up to get some compression numbers.
| justice |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 02/27/12 08:08 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I hope not, but maybe the valves collided with pistons when you had the cams in the wrong positions.
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 02/27/12 09:25 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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OK, just saw your response to my post.
400ml in 10 sec is 2.4 liters in one minute, or between 2 and 2.5 qts, or about .625gal/min. I think that's adequate delivery. Didn't do all the math to check, tho. If you assume 3mpg at wot at 60mph, you only need 1/3 gallon/min...
On a cold start, you should smell slight gas smell at tailpipe from cold start enrichment. Strong gassy smell indicates cylinder misfire or leaking injector.
Just out of curiosity, did you time the motor atdc or btdc? And is the idle you achieve smooth, or does it misfire?
What you have sounds like a timing problem. I have goofed and set the timing at atdc instead of btdc, and it acted just as you describe. Timing will be very late in that case, with the spark real late, with the piston on the way down, and max cylinder pressure will occur long after the optimum crank angle. With a clockwise engine rotation, the crank mark will not be to the timing tag tdc mark by the timing degree amount. IOW, the crank tdc mark will be left of the tag tdc mark by what, 15 degrees?
If the idle is smooth (even tho weak), I do not think you dinged the valves. An easier test than a compression test is to use a vac gauge, attached to an intake mani vac port with a tee and short piece of hose. With the ignition off, crank the motor with a remote start button or asst with a screwdriver or alligator jumper wire shorting from 12v feed to starter (fat cable) to solenoid connector. The engine should turn over slowly enough to see the vac pulse from each cylinder on the gauge. Equal pulses = sound compression. Unequal pulses = mech compression problems.
I know, you said the timing was spot on. Check it anyway. One of the most important parts of diagnosing problems is checking what you are "sure" of. Been there and have the tshirt...
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/27/12 10:42 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Quote:
On a cold start, you should smell slight gas smell at tailpipe from cold start enrichment. Strong gassy smell indicates cylinder misfire or leaking injector.
There is a slight smell of fuel at idle. It wasn't overpowering at all.
Quote:
Just out of curiosity, did you time the motor atdc or btdc? And is the idle you achieve smooth, or does it misfire?
I am unsure what you mean here. This is my first engine rebuild and I'm still a novice to the terminology, so pardon my ignorance.
The way I timed the engine is with the valves all at rest. I brought #1 cylinder up to TDC to line the crank gear timing mark to the mark on the oil pump, then rotated back 2 teeth so the valves would clear when I lined up the cam gear marks to the valve cover marks. I locked the cams on the timing marks with 2 DOHC cam locking tools, and wrapped the belt over the cam gears and around the pulleys and crank gear. When setting the tension on the belt, it pulled the crank gear forward (clockwise) to line up with the mark on the oil pump. I rotated the engine twice to make sure the marks still lined up with #1 at TDC. Did I miss a step?
Quote:
What you have sounds like a timing problem. I have goofed and set the timing at atdc instead of btdc, and it acted just as you describe. Timing will be very late in that case, with the spark real late, with the piston on the way down, and max cylinder pressure will occur long after the optimum crank angle. With a clockwise engine rotation, the crank mark will not be to the timing tag tdc mark by the timing degree amount. IOW, the crank tdc mark will be left of the tag tdc mark by what, 15 degrees?
Yeah, this is where my lack of experience comes into play. I'm completely lost.
My idle is smooth when in park or neutral, but when any load is put on the engine, it idles very low, almost wanting to stall. I will purchase a vacuum gauge and try what you have suggested and look for equal vacuum pulses from an intake port.
I'll start tearing into the front of the engine to check my timing again, since the suggestion has been brought up multiple times. Might as well put that 1% doubt to rest.
Thank you again for your assistance fasteddy, and everyone else as well.
EDIT: Is it possible I swapped the camshaft sprockets also? Looks like they are two different numbers in the ASA program. I wonder if they are clocked different where the pin from the camshaft locks in? How would I tell the difference?
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 02/28/12 11:30 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I was not clear. I meant ignition timing, not cam timing. BTDC = before top dead center, ATDC means after top dead center. The 3.5 has a crank position sensor, and I don't know if it's adjustable - never did mine while I had it. I'll go look at the 3.5 manual and let you know. I trust the cam timing is correct or real close. I don't remember if the 3.5 has a cam position sensor, or how the ignition is actually timed.
Edit: The timing is not adjustable, but should be 5*btdc, +/-3*, with the brown single wire timing check connector on the firewall grounded. timing connector should be near the heater hoses, single wire into a brown connector which may have a sealer on the connector. Ground the wire inside the connector to a good ground - engine metal is good. Use a timing light to check the timing at the crankshaft (I think - manual is not clear)
IF the idle is stable and power is still not there, does it misfire as it tries to rev up, or just no power?
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/28/12 12:10 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Not sure if I'm correct on this, but I don't think the timing is adjustable on this engine. There is a crank sensor, which is not adjustable, and a cam sensor as well. Cam sensor is on the driver side exhaust sprocket, which is in a fixed position as well.
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 02/28/12 05:35 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Any chance the wheel for the crank sensor is on backwards?
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 02/28/12 06:32 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Heck, there's a chance of anything being backwards right now
. I'll find out more this week as I get time to dig into the front of the engine. Quote:
IF the idle is stable and power is still not there, does it misfire as it tries to rev up, or just no power?
Idle is stable. It does not misfire as I rev the engine, just no power, and is slow to bring the revs up. But no miss.
I've been digging around to see if maybe the cam gears are indexed differently, and I may have them swapped, but I'm not having any luck as of yet.
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 02/28/12 08:57 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Take out the air cleaner element and try it.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/03/12 02:10 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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No change with the air filter element removed. Looked at the air filter with a flashlight behind it, and the filter is plenty clean. Can see light through it all the way around.
I did notice while working the throttle from the engine bay with the filter in place, that I can hear a low sucking sound from the airbox. Similar to when the secondaries open on a 4 barrel carb when you punch it. I had a buddy stop by yesterday, who has owned several Mistubishis and he seems to think I'm dealing with a sensor issue (specifically the MAF or the TPS, or a vacuum problem. His opinion is the timing is on, and fuel is not an issue.
I'm going to pull up the vacuum diagrams in the FSM and make sure everything is good there. And see what tests can be done on the TPS and MAF. Might be able to borrow some working sensors from the AZ crew to troubleshoot with.
One thing to note is while checking out the MAF, if I gently shake it, I can hear a rattling noise like a loose part within the little black box above the connection. Also, the engine doesn't run any different with the MAF plugged in, or unplugged. Curious.
Also, I noticed that someone put RTV sealer at the connection for the TPS., so it has been messed with at some point.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/04/12 04:12 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Did some more checks. TPS is fine, and within spec. Borrowed a known good MAF meter. No change there either. Time to start digging deeper. <sigh>
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/04/12 06:02 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Oh boy. Something definitely isn't right here. Got everything torn down, including the intake to get ready to do a compression test. The spark plugs I put in were virtually new: only had a few minutes of run time on them before I pulled the engine. There was a little soot on the ones I put back in, but nothing major.
I pulled the spark plugs so I could run a compression test. Plugs on passenger side are showing an ashy color, indicating a possible lean condition. Here's the kicker: The spark plugs on the driver side are completely clean. They look brand new. They didn't look that way when I put them in there. Oil shows no signs of coolant, so I'm guessing a no spark (or no combustion) condition on the driver side? Fuel vapor cleaned the soot off the plugs? I am totally confused now. Anyone have any ideas? Looks like I may have been running on only 3 cylinders?
EDIT: Well, found my problem. Sort of. NO compression on any driver side cylinder. F**K...
180 or better on the passenger side, so it looks like I didn't damage anything on that side at least. Now to find out what the hell I did on the driver side.
| haztoys |
| (Rock Warrior) |
| 03/04/12 07:26 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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The heads are not the ones that came off the motor ..Right.?
Put the plugs back in ... Kill the spark ... Pull the fuse for the fuel pump ... Now turn the motor over as you would trying to started it ... "Listen" to how the motor "sounds" as it turns over ... There should be a even "rhythm" thats "even" as each Cyl hits TDC ... If you have the cams off or the compression is low on a cyl or cyl bank the "rhythm" will be "off" ..You get what I'm saying...?
I'm still saying cams are off ... I dont care what the timing mark on the cam and crank gears are at ... I care were the cams are pointing and number one is at TDC...
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/04/12 08:02 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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No, the heads are the new ones from Clearwater. I've got the driver side head down to the cams now. I'm not sure how to tell I've got the cams swapped on the driver side. I had to call Clearwater regarding the passenger side, and they told me how to tell the difference by looking at the cam pin vs. the first lobe on the cam. Intake side with the pin straight up, the cam lobe would be at 11:30. The exhaust side would be at 9:30. Need to look at another engine to see if I swapped the cams on the driver side. A bunch of friggin rookie mistakes on my part... Gotta learn somehow I guess.
| haztoys |
| (Rock Warrior) |
| 03/04/12 09:10 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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With the timming marks all lined up where are the cams pointing on #1...?
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/04/12 09:47 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I didn't get that far tonight, but I appreciate you hanging in there with me to figure this out. I'll have to pick at it after work this week and see where everything is situated with the timing marks lined up.
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 03/04/12 09:56 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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The firing order is 123456.
If one side has no compression, it shoud crank (without spark or fuel) like thump whoosh thump whoosh etc.
Shine a light in the plug hole and look at the top of the pistons - should see valve scars if it dinged them.
Look at the valve heights on the dinged side - if the valves are bent, some valves that are not depressed by the cam should be lower than the undinged side. Maybe not much, but measurable.
| Mudraider |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 03/04/12 10:02 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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As much as I hate to say it I'm following this thread closely. After I throw the 94 3.5 into my 87 and make sure everything is in order and working, i will be pulling it out and going thru it. I will be be paying close attention to these "rookie" mistakes (whatever) when I go thru mine. Wishing you luck dude. And you guys throwing ideas out there (fasteddy, wwff, toasty, all of youse guys, much appreciated).
| haztoys |
| (Rock Warrior) |
| 03/04/12 10:52 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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For a rookie you picked one of the tricker motors to be mass produced and sold in large quantity to Joe public I must say...Mitsu makes some trick motors
...Cam lobes on cyl #1 should be facing "out" away from each other .. Cam lobes on cyl #2 should be facing "in" to each other ..
Think about it .. Cyl #1 is timed on the compression/firing stroke and you cant have a valve open it will just dump the compression out the open valve ..Right...
Alway check where your cams are once the belts on .. Like I said dont care about timing marks its where the cams are once I'm done that matters... One of my tricks is as soon as the motors at the point I can turn it over with the starter and the plugs in it I do ...As someone who builds motor as my day job ..I've seen a mess of motors with hyd belt tensioners jump time on the first crank over ...Mitsu's are real bad for it ...Cranking a motor over with no spark or fuel really puts a load on it .. With spark and fuel the cylinders are firing and helping to turn the motor..
And you can hear the rhythm of the motor as it turns over too..If you have a low hole ( low cyl compression) you will hear it and feel it..
Like Eddy said ... I hope you did not hurt any thing...
| ryany |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 03/04/12 11:38 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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FYI - your mistakes are not rookie mistakes. The 3.5 is one of the most difficult motors to get together correctly that I've ever worked on - when I pulled the heads off of mine a number of years ago I had issues once I got it back together also. Turned out that I apparently didn't get some of the rocker arms securely in place - one of them had actually come off of the pivot and got stuck sideways under the cam, digging a groove in it's cam lobe. One of the others had come completely off. While I'm not an engine builder or mechanic by trade I've worked on numerous OHC engines over the years and consider myself to be pretty mechanically inclined - I've never had the kind of issues that I did with this engine.
Keep with it - we're keeping our fingers crossed for you!
| justice |
| (Roll Me Over) |
| 03/05/12 04:44 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Quote:
After some trial and error of the engine not running, I found that I had swapped the cams on the passenger side
Quote:
maybe the valves collided with pistons when you had the cams in the wrong positions.
Not looking good..wish you the best though.
| DougH |
| (Mitsubishi Forum Moderator) |
| 03/05/12 05:37 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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3.5 is a tough motor to work on no doubt!
I lunched some passenger side valves when I did my first timing belt change.
The FSM is translated out of order, they have you rotate the crank with the cams lined up and belted up, but without the crank sprocket belted in.
I should have knew better but I let my internal dumb-arse get the best of me "go ahead give it a whirl, that is what the instructions say derrrrrrrrrrrr"
Good luck!
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/05/12 08:10 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Alright, quick update after doing some digging around tonight. I think the passenger side is ok via compression numbers. all 180lbs or better. Here is where it gets interesting:
I compared the driver side cams with my old head because I could not tell the difference between the intake and exhaust cams on my new head. I also went to PA_JERO's house to look at Lloyd's engine just to verify. I looked at the cam lobes with the pin straight up. Here's what I found:
New head:
Intake cam - Lobe#1&2 = 1 o'clock. Lobe#3&4 = 9 o'clock.
Exhaust cam - Lobe#1&2 = 1 o'clock. Lobe#3&4 = 9 o'clock
Old Head:
Intake cam - Lobe#1&2 = 4 o'clock. Lobe#3&4 = 12 o'clock.
Exhaust cam -Lobe#1&2 = 1 o'clock. Lobe#3&4 = 9 o'clock
Lloyd's head:
Intake cam - Lobe#1&2 = 4 o'clock. Lobe#3&4 = 12 o'clock
Exhaust cam - Lobe#1&2 = 1 o'clock. Lobe#3&4 = 9 o'clock
So it appears Clearwater shipped me a driver side head with two exhaust cams in it. They are identical, and neither cam matches the two other intake cams I have looked at.
So the $64,000 question is: Will having two exhaust cams on the same head F up the valves? I'm going to call Clearwater tomorrow so they can make this right. I hope it is as "simple" as putting in an actual intake cam where it belongs and all will be right with the world for a change. What do you guys think?
| monte3 |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 03/05/12 08:10 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Jay, You've no doubt worked long and hard on this engine, not to mention the $$ outlaid. Don't give up!
That said, there's enough quirks to start a "what not to do when rebuilding the DOHC" sticky.
Best of luck, I wish I had some sage wisdom to impart...
I'm not sure, but if there's an issue that is Clearwater's fault, you might be able to recoup some $$ from them.
| MontyMcV |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 03/05/12 08:30 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I they didn't give me a hefty partial refund, I'd be MapQuesting a route to FL for a face to face discussion. They were great when I spoke with them in the past for my 2.6 head, and then again for the 3.0 24V. Hopefully they will do you right...
BTW, don't loose sight of what bright side is there- that you didn't muck something up in your work.
| sasnydley |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 03/05/12 08:35 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I've been to their shop and also purchased heads for my 3.0 from them. I live an hour from there. Would you like me to go there and give them a piece of your mind for you?
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 03/05/12 08:41 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Step 1: Negotiate with clearwater for a new head, freight on them. Point out to them that this forum has bought a lot of their heads, and if they don't make it good, adios clearwater. Be nice until the end. Mistakes happen. I bet they send you a new one.
Step 2: If step 1 fails, if you paid via credit card, dispute the charge.
| PA_JERO |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 03/05/12 09:26 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I've seen personally how hard this guy has worked on this engine. The least he could get out of this would be for clearwater to own up to there mistake and ship him a new head with the CORRECT cams in place. And at this point, I see no rookie here.
Now get that head from clearwater and show that engine and up coming trails whos boss!!!
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/05/12 10:25 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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So, the consensus seems to be to replace the entire head, instead of just replacing the cam with the correct one. Damn. Was hoping not to have to drain the block, and replace the head with the engine in the truck. My thought was since I had the cams swapped on the passenger side, and that head is ok, I might be able to get away with just replacing the cam. Better to be safe than sorry I suppose.
I'll report back tomorrow with what Clearwater says. If they jerk me around, I'll call on my Mitsu brethren to send a wave of nasty emails to encourage them to reconsider. Ha ha. Thanks again for all of the help and encouragement fellas.
| haztoys |
| (Rock Warrior) |
| 03/05/12 11:36 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I would not pull the head if I did not have too... Why ..
I would check each cyl at compression stock if none of the valves looked as if they would of hit ... I would put the right cam in and check compression..If its good run it .. Get on the trail and back to life with the famliy ...
As Eddy said about looking at the rocker arms...Any play in the rocker arms as the cam lobe faces away from the cam ...?
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 03/06/12 11:05 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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You'd have to do a compression test with a leak down tester, since the cams are wrong. Or use one of those compression testers with the quick disconnect hose that fits an airline disco. You'd have to remove the cams to close all the valves. With the cams removed you cant rotate the motor because the pside cams are still in. Or, remove all 4 cams and rotate the motor, but then you have no intake air to compress...
I'd call clearwater first and explain what you have found. I swear there's some kind of identifier on the cams themselves, but I could be wrong.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/06/12 11:33 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Ok, I called Clearwater this morning. Their recommendation was to pull the cams, and run a minimum of 90psi into the cylinders to check for any leaky valves. That way they will know if they need to send me an intake cam, or send me a new head. I just bought my compression tester on Sunday, so I'll have to look at the adapters that came with it to see if I can run pressure into the cylinders, and check for leak down at the same time via the gauge. I need to let them know by tomorrow at the latest if they are going to get me a replacement cam or head by the weekend. So at the very least, it looks like there going to take care of it.
When I called them about the passenger side cams that I swapped, they said there are no markings on the cams to identify which is which. You just have to go by the lobe position with the pin up. My thinking is I ran the passenger side head with the exhaust cam in the intake position, and I'm getting 180psi+ (on a cold engine) on each cylinder on that side, so I seem to have avoided any damage. I'm hoping the same is true with the driver side. I didn't do a leak down test on the passenger side though, so I may not have all of the facts on the condition of that side.
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 03/06/12 12:11 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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If you have 180psi, it's fine. Fix the dside and go riding...
When you check the dside, you'll have to close the valves. Easiest way may be to remove both cams, and DON'T MIX THEM UP....
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/06/12 12:27 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Ha ha! Will do man. Since both cams are identical, I can't screw them up, but I've already got them marked with a Sharpie. Don't want to make THAT mistake again!
| haztoys |
| (Rock Warrior) |
| 03/06/12 09:51 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Quote:
You'd have to do a compression test with a leak down tester, since the cams are wrong. Or use one of those compression testers with the quick disconnect hose that fits an airline disco. You'd have to remove the cams to close all the valves. With the cams removed you cant rotate the motor because the pside cams are still in. Or, remove all 4 cams and rotate the motor, but then you have no intake air to compress...
I'd call clearwater first and explain what you have found. I swear there's some kind of identifier on the cams themselves, but I could be wrong.
Sorry Eddy I did not word by post right ... I was trying to say ..Look a the valve tops at the cam to see if there bent or low ...If they look good do the cam ... I can build a motor easyer there I can spell .. sign ...
The "dont mix the cams up" made me LOL...
I'm with Justice ...I bet there marked ..I never look I marks I mark them before I pull them .. Theres not a mark on the ends ..?? The japaness mark every thing if you know what you looking at ....Strange ...
Maybe they dont..
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 03/06/12 11:06 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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It's ok, David, I speak "haz" by now.
I'd try the rednek pressure test. Seal a hose to the plug hole and blow in it. You will get the minor leakage past the ring gaps, but a bent valve will show up pretty easy. I'd also do the visual and maybe a ruler test on the valve height as David says. A bent valve will show up as shorter.
David is pretty good at this, once you learn to read his prose.
My fingers are crossed for you.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/07/12 12:15 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I hooked my air compressor up to each cylinder when I got home from work. Seems #6 is ok, I can hear air leaking past the rings. Probably more than usual, but the engine hasn't been broken in yet, and the rings haven't had any drive time to seat, so that can be explained. And since I haven't had any combustion on that side of the engine since the rebuild, it hasn't seen the heat cycles the passenger side has seen.
However, I can hear air escaping through the intake on #4 and #2 cylinders. I have painters tape over the intake right now to keep debris out of the engine. The air escaping is enough to push up on the tape slightly, but not break the seal on the tape. I'm assuming ANY air escaping is a bad sign, so it looks like I'm going to have to replace the head. Bummer. I suppose when the new head gets here, I can borrow the intake cam off of it, and put it together enough to do a compression test to make sure, but I don't want to risk running the current head and burning up a valve. Looks like I'm in for some long hours ahead still.
In my haste to check for valve leaks, I did not check for any shorter valves with the cams still on the head. Perhaps I will throw the cams back in tomorrow night, and probe with some feeler gauges to see if it will show me any shorter valves, and by how much.
| haztoys |
| (Rock Warrior) |
| 03/07/12 05:07 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Quote:
Looks like I'm in for some long hours ahead still.
If it helps don't feel bad ...As someone who has done more motors then most ...I did twelve motors last year don't do many motors these days... But still stand behind old customers (friends) most in the stage rally world .. Did a mess of trick 2.5 Subaru's DOHC and SOHC ,,Mitsu EVO's ,,very cool Datsun 240z stroker motor using a diesel block turned into a gas motor ..DSM 2.0/2.4 ,,a English Ford Kent .. Even a "corn cob motor" at the day job and three more of those monsters to do this year ...No problem right ..I'm pretty good at this been doing it for some time..
But guess what .... Did one full motor for me last year ... Buy cars that people don't want to fix ... Fix them and sell them make killer money doing it .. Shocking what cars people will give up on .. Got me a 2002 Subaru did the motor ... The sucker eats the crank shaft in three hundred miles ..Why ..Hell I don't know ... I did the some as I've always done on all motors I do ...Did the motor again the same as the last time and all motors .. Runs fine ...
I can do other peoples motors fine ... But have to fight to get my 'own' to go ..LOL..madding
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/07/12 12:52 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I totally get it man. If it weren't for the fact that I've been struggling with this truck since last July, I don't think I would be as disappointed and frustrated as I am now.
And to top it all off, I called Clearwater this morning to let them know the valves touched, and I would need a new head. They are now telling me I have to tear the head off, and ship it back to them (on them) before they will send me a new head, which is not what they said yesterday. The salesman told me he didn't say anything about sending a new head, but only a new intake cam if needed.
It got pretty heated, and he said I was being unreasonable, stating the warranty policy does not allow them to just send me another head. My argument is this isn't a warranty issue, but a workmanship issue, and this is their problem. Not mine. Nevermind I have a rebuilt short block with dings in the pistons now because of their mistake. Or the new OEM head gasket I have to procure, and the hours of labor it is going to take me to tear the head off while the engine is in the truck, protect the engine from the elements while I wait for a new head, and replace everything. We're talking many hours of labor because of their mistake. Pardon the rant. My fuse is pretty short as of late.
| fasteddy |
| (Web Wheeler) |
| 03/07/12 10:11 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Did you use a credit card with Clearwater? Dispute the charge, AFTER you call Clearwater and talk to the boss first. The boss will always have a better grasp of real customer service than the phone peon. And you have a great position.
I'd tell the boss you need a new head gasket and intake and exhaust gaskets and valve cover/cam tower gaskets, and plug seals, in fact, you need over half a whole head set, less the guide seals, and you want oem. I know this board has bought at least 20 heads from clearwater in the last couple of years, and I bet this is the last one unless they do right.
I'd precede the phone call with an email to the boss to clue him in, and give him a chance to call you before you make your last call.
| PA_JERO |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 03/07/12 11:20 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Quote:
Did you use a credit card with Clearwater? Dispute the charge, AFTER you call Clearwater and talk to the boss first. The boss will always have a better grasp of real customer service than the phone peon. And you have a great position.
I'd tell the boss you need a new head gasket and intake and exhaust gaskets and valve cover/cam tower gaskets, and plug seals, in fact, you need over half a whole head set, less the guide seals, and you want oem. I know this board has bought at least 20 heads from clearwater in the last couple of years, and I bet this is the last one unless they do right.
I'd precede the phone call with an email to the boss to clue him in, and give him a chance to call you before you make your last call.
I second this. With all the gaskets and seals, you are now down even more money on the poor worksmanship. Get an Email that you can send a picture to, showing the cams, and the head on the motor
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/07/12 11:21 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Yes, I used a credit card, but I purchased back in November of last year, so I don't know if it is too late to dispute. It's from an account I don't use anymore, and was ready to close it.
I didn't even get past the salesman (Patrick) on this call. Once he told me he never said he would send me a new head, that pretty much set me off. He became a condescending p***k real quick, and said he can't circumvent "policy", and he had to talk to the shop foreman about it. I didn't even get to the new gaskets needed, or my labor to tear this whole thing apart and redo it. If I was paying a shop to do this, I'd be into them for at least $1000 by now. Thanks to you guys helping out, I didn't take it to a shop and dug into it myself, but the point is valid nonetheless. Since Patrick never "got back to me" today as he said he would, I'll have to call again tomorrow and try to escalate. Figures I'd be the ONE guy to have a problem with this company. I was on the final push to get this thing running so I could finally take my first wheeling/camping trip with the guys in the AZ crew on the 17th. Ain't gonna happen now.
EDIT: Found the CEOs name is Bob Metz, but haven't found a direct email address yet. Still looking.
| TainterRacing |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/08/12 12:56 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I have bought heads from them over the years and have told hundreads more to get them. To be honest I have heard a few complaints in just the last year. Then then the 13 before that. I would go in there and complaine myself if I was closer.
I realy think for my self I might in the future go to my local machine shop guy. I know I can trust him to do it right will be a bit more $$ But I know for a fact he would make it right if there was a mess up. I might buy a bare head from them but thats all. Is sad to see companys that go down hill. people used to stand behind what they did. I realy hope you get it all taken care of.
http://www.bbb.org/west-florida/business...84#reasonrating
| DougH |
| (Mitsubishi Forum Moderator) |
| 03/08/12 08:29 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I would ask to speak to the owner, or if he isn't an active owner ask to speak to the head guy in charge.
Explain to them how many sales we have driven to their business in the past based on a great customer service, and how many customers they will loose in the future if they drop the ball.
If they won't do the right thing I will be happy to call them and let them know the orders that I will be placing with their competitors instead of them!
They should do right.
| JohnnyBfromPeoria |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 03/14/12 02:49 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Give us some good news, Jinstv. Otherwise we'll have to sell Girl Scout cookies to raise the money to get this going.
Everybody seems to like Thin Mints, though.
John B.
| PA_JERO |
| (Body Damage is Cool) |
| 03/14/12 10:44 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I'm pretty sure he said they shipped a new head to him friday so he should get it by the end of this week or something.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/14/12 12:10 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Yeah, I guess I should update progress.
Clearwater agreed to send a new cylinder head out last week with the stipulation that I have the old head ready for UPS pickup on Monday. I pulled the head this past weekend, and had it boxed up for pickup. It is now Wednesday morning, and the old head has not been picked up yet.
I just followed up via email this morning to see if they called out UPS to pick up the old head, and if they actually shipped the new head last week as they stated they would. Will see how quickly I hear back, if at all.
New OEM head gasket should be at the dealer tomorrow. I am re-using the head bolts and all of the other gaskets, since there is virtually no run time on them. I couldn't get them to agree to pay for all new seals and gaskets, so I took what I could get. Hopefully I will have everything by the end of the week, and start putting the engine back together this weekend. Hopefully...
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/16/12 01:05 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Update:
New head came in a couple of days ago, and the dealer got my gasket in yesterday. So I'll be putting the truck back together (again) this weekend. Hoping this will finally be the end of this long road. Wish me luck!
| JohnnyBfromPeoria |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 03/16/12 02:40 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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I will wish you luck, but I know it's skill that will get this done.
Best of skill.
John B.
| Canyonero |
| (Mudrunner) |
| 03/20/12 01:41 AM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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Already updated the AZ Crew forum, but just wanted to update this thread real quick, and say a big thanks for all of you that helped me through this difficult project of mine.
Got the head replaced on my engine, and everything put back together. A few minor hiccups tracking down a no spark situation, but the truck is now firing on all cylinders and running smooth as butter. Looks like I may have messed up a coolant gasket on the backside of the passenger head, so I need to fix a coolant leak back there, but finally getting closer to getting the truck on the road. Going to work on sealing up the coolant leak over the next couple of nights, and will hopefully be taking it on some break in/shakedown runs this weekend! Thanks again everyone!
| off-roader |
| (Mitsubishi Forum Moderator) |
| 03/20/12 12:55 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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NICE! Been following your 'journey' with that rig. Glad things are finally coming around for you.
| MontyMcV |
| (Trail Leader) |
| 03/20/12 01:22 PM |
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Re: Troubleshooting/diagnosis/direction help. 95SR. (long)
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