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Starter issue?
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I have been having more than my share of problems over the past year or so with starters on my Raider. I replaced the one starter with the gear wouldn't push out to engage the flywheel. So this starter has literally 50 miles on it if its lucky. I replaced the main power wire to the starter recently as well as the remote wire that hooks to the solenoid. It seems to start fine, but then sometimes it will just click click click. I took it for a drive today, stopped at a carwash, cleaned a falls worth of sap off the hood and roof. Got in held my breath and she turned over no problem. I stop to get gas, $45 later I goto turn the key and it just clicks from the dash and the solenoid. I tried it about a dozen times, flag someone down to give me a jump thinking my Optima was dead (which I sat on the charger last night for 12 hours). Before he could hook the cables up, I turn the key 1 last time and she cranks and fires like nothing in the world is wrong. Before that, the other day I went to start it and I was getting a weird popping noise from the glove box, and the dash went dark. About 2 minutes later with the key off I tried again and the lights came back on and she started.  I am a bit confused by all of this, and I would like to figure it out before I send my Outback to the paint shop.
Thanks
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Re: Starter issue?
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the relay in the dash might be clicking but not sending good current through.
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FrankR
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(Web Wheeler)
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02/27/10 06:23 AM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Clean your battery connections and make sure they're tight. Then clean the ground strap connections to the frame, inner fender and engine block (both sides).
If that doesn't work, check the ignition switch circuit and consider replacing the pigtail portion of the ignition switch (behind the lock cylinder).
If that doesn't work, install an extra relay into the ignition circuit.... triggered by the ignition switch lead that is now connected to the starter solenoid switch..... that will throw battery voltage directly to the starter solenoid switch.
Frank
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Re: Starter issue?
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jip. I agree with Frank. Put the relay in.
By the sound of it you know how the atrter works but just to be safe check here
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.p...;gonew=1#UNREAD
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fasteddy
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(Web Wheeler)
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02/27/10 05:27 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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I'm with Frank. The signs point to corrosion on the battery terminals. Not enough juice is getting through to turn the starter, but enough is to actuate the solenoid. Clean the terminals. If it fails on the way to the auto parts to get the cleaner brush, whack the terminals with a hammer to sort of make a better connection. While you are at the auto parts, buy a pair of the anti corrosion felt washers to put over the battery posts under the terminals.
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Kevin C
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(Trail Leader)
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02/27/10 06:19 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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It also never hurts to check the voltage drops across the ignition switch. The contacts can get dirty and cause all kinds of issues.
Kevin
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Re: Starter issue?
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the switch pigtails checked out fine, I checked voltage to the solenoid and its reading 11.4-11.6v. I bought a replacement starter relay, but cannot locate it in the car itself? I tried to start it again today and it made the noise under the dash and the whole dash went dark again.
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fasteddy
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(Web Wheeler)
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03/01/10 11:00 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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The truck has no starter relay. Did you clean the battery terminals yet?
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Re: Starter issue?
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I cleaned the terminals. Odd... no relay? What did they order me from Advance?  I have a feeling since the truck sat outside during the snow storm the windshield might of leaked onto the ECU at this point. 
Would the ECU getting wet show symptoms like this? with the noise coming from the glove box and all electronics going dead?
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fasteddy
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(Web Wheeler)
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03/02/10 12:12 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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When you cleaned the terminals, did you clean the post and the wire terminal? Did you clean the "other wire" on the positive post connections, including the connections for the fusible links?
The ecu does not control the starter in any way.
Starter basics: The starter gets power straight from the battery via the fat wire on the positive battery terminal, which is hot at all times at the starter connector. The starter solenoid is a two function device. It extends the starter motor gear into mesh with the teeth on the flywheel, and only after they are meshed, acts as a relay to connect the heavy battery current to the starter motor. The solenoid is activated by the ign. switch via the small spade connector. Note two heavy studs on the forward end of the solenoid. The battery connects to the one furthest from the starter motor. The other one has a wire connected that goes into the starter motor and connects to the motor brushes. The two studs are electrically isolated. The solenoid core has a copper disc on the forward end. When the solenoid is activated by the ign. sw., the core moves forward, and engages the starter gear via a lever, At the end of the solenoid stroke, the copper disc on the end bridges the two heavy studs, making the connection from battery to starter motor, and the motor spins and turns over the engine. The starter circuit grounds back to the battery negative via the engine block thru the engine ground wire to the batt. -.
The sypmtoms you describe are very similar to a bad corrosion at the battery terminal connector, OR a bad ground path. The negative battery terminal goes first to the truck bodywork near the battery, then continues to the engine block. Clean both connection points well of crud and corrosion, both on the body/engine block side and the wire connector surface, and apply some dielectric grease. Clean the battery posts and connectors again. Clean the connection to the "other wire" on the positive battery connector that feeds the rest of the electrical system.
The clicking in the glovebox area you hear is the ecu control relay cycling. It is on in ign. start and on controlled by the ecu in ign run, off otherwise.
One further note. Remember the copper disc in the solenoid? It is subject to arcing every time the starter cycles on, and over time, the arc scars inhibit current flow, and the starter "fails". In most cases, the disc turns on the core, exposing new areas for contact, but given long enough, the whole contact area is scarred. Starter motors rarely fail, they just quit getting juice due to the solenoid disc scarring. This is why whacking a failing starter often makes the truck crank, as it wiggles stuff enough to turn the disc to a usable place or dislodges arc scarring.
To test a starter, look here.
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Re: Starter issue?
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I took the starter out and bench tested it and it was fine. I cleaned all my terminals, and it was still acting up. I finally chopped the connector off that has the 2 wires for the starter and oil sending wire. Crimp and heat shrunk the wires together (removed the pressure sending wire all together) and she seems to be starting fine now. 
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fasteddy
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(Web Wheeler)
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03/02/10 03:06 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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So it was the solenoid wire connector. This does not explain the dash lights dying...
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Re: Starter issue?
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No it doesn't, but I did clean the badly corroded grounding wire that the battery clamp was attached to. Not sure if that was a root cause but the combination of all the bad or corroded connections and that bad solenoid wire probably made one single problem seem a whole lot worse. So far I am up to about 10 starts and no failures. 
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RECON45
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(Body Damage is Cool)
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03/03/10 04:56 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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What timing. i was reading over this article and now I am having issues. I was at work drove out to lunch no problem came back try to go home it did not want to crank or eveen click, but everything works radio, lights, etc. I wish it was at home so I can clean all that stuff. I tried jumping it incase it is the battery no luck. i am going to get a voltmeter and try to figure it out so I can at least get home. thanks for this post.
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Re: Starter issue?
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the connector next to the battery has such thin prongs I am shocked they don't burn out sooner. I replaced the whole positive wire to the starter as well as the solenoid wire. I drove her the past 2 days and not a single issue what so ever *knock on wood*.
I ran low on $$ so I used connection cleaner on the neg ground locations, and cut the corroded wire to the clamp short and striped down to fresh copper.
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fasteddy
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(Web Wheeler)
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03/03/10 06:38 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Recon, smack the battery terminals with something stout - hammmer, lug wrench, I've even used the leatherman in a pinch. It should make good enough connection to get it started at least once, then stop at the autozone on the way home and buy a cehapie wrench and a terminal cleaner brush...
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RECON45
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(Body Damage is Cool)
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03/04/10 08:21 AM
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Re: Starter issue?
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I will do that. I also brought my voltmeter to make sure it has the juice. i wish it had high enough amperage to check the cold crank. I did tap on the starter housing and solenoid as well. I had starter problem like that with one of my jettas. Fired right up. thanks yall
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Jamez
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(Rock Warrior)
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03/04/10 09:18 AM
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Re: Starter issue?
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I've had connection issues on a couple different vehicles. One had a negative post that was just a hair too small to tighten the terminal onto. Turning it a bit would usually make enough contact to start at least once.
Anyone have recommended aftermarket terminals? I've noticed some batteries either have slightly smaller posts or they just get worn down from "adjusting" them.
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Kevin C
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(Trail Leader)
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03/04/10 09:24 AM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Quote:
the connector next to the battery has such thin prongs I am shocked they don't burn out sooner.
Thin as in corroded or by design?
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RECON45
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(Body Damage is Cool)
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03/04/10 01:13 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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This is getting irritating.  Tapping on everything under the hood, tried jumping it and nothing. i turned the key and I can hear from the passenger firewall clicking but nothing from the starter. I think it is dead. But it is crazy how it just died with no warning. This is going to be fun changing a starter in my work parking lot. Can someone get a tool list and size sockets I will need to make things a little easier. It should not be anymore than 3 bolts and whatever connection from the battery to the solenoid correct? Am I going to have to remove all that shielding around the exhaust? thanks yall
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off-roader
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(Mitsubishi Forum Moderator)
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03/04/10 02:15 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Quote:
This is getting irritating. Tapping on everything under the hood, tried jumping it and nothing. i turned the key and I can hear from the passenger firewall clicking but nothing from the starter. I think it is dead. But it is crazy how it just died with no warning. This is going to be fun changing a starter in my work parking lot. Can someone get a tool list and size sockets I will need to make things a little easier. It should not be anymore than 3 bolts and whatever connection from the battery to the solenoid correct? Am I going to have to remove all that shielding around the exhaust? thanks yall
The 91v6 is an easy R&R. I've done it on my 90 before (same setup) in under 15minutes. IIRC, you need a 12 & 14mm but it's been a long time since I've done it so wait for others to confirm/correct that.
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Re: Starter issue?
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If I were you I would crimp a connector to a piece of 14-16 gauge wire and hook it to the solenoid and then touch it to the positive terminal directly. That would tell you right away if your starter is bad, or if it was like me and the wires went bad.
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off-roader
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(Mitsubishi Forum Moderator)
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03/04/10 03:02 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Quote:
If I were you I would crimp a connector to a piece of 14-16 gauge wire and hook it to the solenoid and then touch it to the positive terminal directly. That would tell you right away if your starter is bad, or if it was like me and the wires went bad.
Note: Only do this in park/neutral and with the parking brake engaged.
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Re: Starter issue?
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if it is a v6 look at my starter link. You can get the starter out in 5 minutes or less.
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1196281&an=0&page=0&gonew=1
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Re: Starter issue?
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Quote:
Quote:
If I were you I would crimp a connector to a piece of 14-16 gauge wire and hook it to the solenoid and then touch it to the positive terminal directly. That would tell you right away if your starter is bad, or if it was like me and the wires went bad.
Note: Only do this in park/neutral and with the parking brake engaged.
Also, make sure the key is turned to the ON position so if it starts you can get your truck home.
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fasteddy
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(Web Wheeler)
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03/04/10 11:10 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Take a single jumper cable and some kind of metal tool, like a screwdriver and hook the cable to batt + and other end to the outer of the two big studs on the solenoid. Jump from jumper cable to the solenoid spade connector (the small wire to the starter, all with key on, and the truck should start if the starter is not toast. Whack the starter solenoid a couple of whacks with all the connections made and see what happens. Try just touching the jumper to the solenoid spade connector first to see if you have a bad ign sw wire. Listen for the solenoid to kick out, a solid thunk.
Is this an original mitsu starter, or a reman?
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RECON45
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(Body Damage is Cool)
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03/05/10 08:17 AM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Have no clue only had the montero for 2 months.
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Re: Starter issue?
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After I did my body swap and a full harness swap I had the same starting issues. I cleaned the terminals, bench tested the starter, tested the resistance in the ground and power wire. Replaced battery with redtop tested the starting solenoid, Everything. It would start with a jumper battery hooked to the battery under the hood every time and everything was leading back to the battery in the truck acting like a bad connection or low voltage although all battery bench tests passed (load and voltage). Finally I hooked the jumper battery wires to the truck terminals and no battery installed and it started. So out of desperation and nothing else to try I cleaned the terminals one more time a bit more vigorously because I was pissed and cause it was about 2am. And guess what! That was the problem dirty terminals. It dawned on me the jumper wires from the bench battery were touching the outside of the terminal and all the test I performed the meter was clipped on the OUTSIDE of the terminals. So of course the test will work out. So long story short dont over think it and start with the easiest thing first and ALWAYS check the terminals and check them again, make sure there tight too. So now I wonder if I even needed a new battery and starter? Oh well.
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RECON45
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(Body Damage is Cool)
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03/06/10 12:26 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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I dove into it today. Started out the battery was about dead due to the somehow the dome light has been on for several days taping it down. So I had to replace it. Still no good but notice my ground cable was a bit loose and tarnished. So I replace the smaller gauge wire with a thicker gauge wire. I then got a very fast clicking sound from the starter for a few seconds and then it stopped. When I turned the nothing just as it has been doing. I am lost. The positive cable looks in great shape and I cleaned it anyways. Can there be anything else wrong before I replace the starter?
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Re: Starter issue?
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Quote:
I dove into it today. Started out the battery was about dead due to the somehow the dome light has been on for several days taping it down. So I had to replace it. Still no good but notice my ground cable was a bit loose and tarnished. So I replace the smaller gauge wire with a thicker gauge wire. I then got a very fast clicking sound from the starter for a few seconds and then it stopped. When I turned the nothing just as it has been doing. I am lost. The positive cable looks in great shape and I cleaned it anyways. Can there be anything else wrong before I replace the starter?
If this is happening when you are trying to crank it means the battery doesn't have enough 'oomph' to turn the starter motor. Try to charge or replace the battery and try again.
A fast clicking solenoid is a good sign.
From : Mitsubishi starter Quote:
If you get the dreaded repetitive clicking it is usually a flat battery as the battery has enough power to get the solenoid going, but as soon as the connection is made and the starter motors draws current, the battery loses voltage and the solenoid disengages. Then the battery has voltage again and the process starts over.....click..click..click..click..click
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RECON45
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(Body Damage is Cool)
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03/06/10 01:09 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Its a new battery durlast gold with 800-1000 cranking amps. It only did the fast clicking once and then did not do it anymore
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Re: Starter issue?
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my positive cable looked fine, but turned out the cable corroded inside the coating. So you never do know. As frank mentioned, check for Cont. in the starter switch pigtails.
Oh, and still no issues. Going offroad today. wish me luck
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Re: Starter issue?
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Quote:
Its a new battery durlast gold with 800-1000 cranking amps. It only did the fast clicking once and then did not do it anymore
can you check voltage at battery and voltage at starter?
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RECON45
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(Body Damage is Cool)
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03/06/10 06:43 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Found out the neutral safety switch was not right and it is fixed and running like a champ. Thanks for all your help.
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fasteddy
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(Web Wheeler)
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03/06/10 06:45 PM
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Re: Starter issue?
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Great!
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