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Thanks for the info but I have read in some of your posts that you were having problems with your Rodeo as a daily driver, can you explain so I know what to look for or maybe fix when do I do these jobs

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What makes a daily drivable SAS'd vehicle

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I've found that testosterone and lack of anyone else on the road to be a benefit. :p

Actually I drove mine quite a bit as a daily driver before I had some issues and I don't think the lift was tame at all.

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I'd also like to say that I was really impressed with the way Sweater's SAS turned out.

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Yes, his is a really good example i forgot to mention. Hats off to Sweater.

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I'd also like to say that with the stock engine/tranny/tcase,

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Very important when working with the stock driveline to consider front driveshaft length. Anything SOA and higher in the front, you'll be garenteed to have issues here (no matter how forward you move the axle). The stock isuzu driveline is short and lots of lift just makes it worse. Only through my dual tcase problem did i finally solve this for myself.

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35-36" tires is probably the max size you'd be able to get away with.

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That trooper turned out really well. Managable lift, but still able to do some fender trimming for larger tires. I'd also like to say that I was really impressed with the way Sweater's SAS turned out.

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yep....Mike's success can directly be attributed to "working out" the issues on Don's trooper.

Don's pre-dates Mike's by a few months and there fore i was able to make some solid reccomendations. Mike bought most all the same items as Don and set it up the same way....just a little smaller tire.

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I'd also like to say that with the stock engine/tranny/tcase, 35-36" tires is probably the max size you'd be able to get away with. Not because of strength, but due to the fact that our trucks come with such low gears from the factory that when you put larger tires on and start swapping gears in the axles, you can only go so low before you run out of gearing options and run into small pinion contact area strength issues.

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I think if yours will be daily driven, its far easier to start out with that concept in mind and let everything else fall into place rather than going with a big SAS and trying to tame it for the street later (ala me and Doug). I spend more time in making my truck streetable so i could make it to work the next morning that doing anything else.

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Many of the problems that people are facing with their sas's are with height control. Would coil springs in the front help make the vehicle more daily drivable?

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Would coil springs in the front help make the vehicle more daily drivable? Is it easier to control the height with them? I believe Troy (94Rodeo) used coils from a ford in his sas, how is his ride doing for daily driving?

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You'll have just as many troubles choosing the right coil as you do the right leaf.

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I speak humbley when i say, your average first time SAS'er doesn't have the skills necessary to design a link setup capable of safe onroad travel.

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guess I am not average Seriously though I don't think that control arms or radius arms like I am running is very difficult, but a 3 or 4 link would be. I will eventually go to a 4 link in the future, but the radius arms are getting me close to a 800 on a 20* ramp now with street pressure in the tires , so I don't know if I can ask for much more.

Troy

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Yes, his is a really good example i forgot to mention. Hats off to Sweater.

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My plan all along for the on road and off was the spring under front but I was wanting to see how Sweater worked out the oil pan issues

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Many things have been mentioned about the front driveline being too short. If you are already replacing the Rear driveline (as is the case in many lifted Rodeos) why not just lengthen or remake the front driveline from the outset? Does this cause more complications with the drivelines trying to shake themselves to pieces or does it correct the problem?

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Lengthening the driveline is virtually unavoidable -- that's not what we're talking about.

With significant lift, Isuzus with stock trannies and tcases are tough to keep a driveshaft in... the issue is less connecting the t-case yoke and the front differential yoke, and more keeping the joints at each end of the yoke within tolerable operating angles... or for that matter, preventing them from binding.

Here are a few ways to minimize this problem:
* keeping low ultimate lift height
* clearancing the yokes for better angularity
* running a limiting strap to prevent drooping into a driveshaft bind
* rotating the knuckles and pointing the differential yoke at the t-case yoke

Here are a few ways to 'solve' the problem:
* spending mega-bucks on one of those shafts with joints that permit high relative angles
* scooting the drivetrain WAY back
* swapping/adding tranny/tcases to allow running a longer front driveshaft
* building a 2WD pre-runner

Randii

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One more post and I will be done i promise.

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No... don't promise that! This is good discussion, don't stop!

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Why do people prefer TRE's to Heims or SRE's?

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Do they move more/better?

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What kind of maintenance diffs are there between the two?

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...only a couple of gas/rest/burrito breaks.

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Yeah, I can see how all of those would be inter-related!

Randii

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geez look at all the info......see what I started Rob....lol

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Yea, this spawned a great topic... just because i told you orginally to hit the search button doesn't mean you should shy away from specific questions. We're generally a pretty friendly bunch

-Rob

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One more post and I will be done i promise.


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No... don't promise that! This is good discussion, don't stop!

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Ok I will keep on posting

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The tapered stud on a TRE is also good avoidance for wallowing out the attachment hole (as non-precision traditional bolts do). A common approach to mounting SREs is to just drill a hole in the steering arm and put a bolt through it. If there is ANY wiggle in that joint (and there will be if you are using a standard bolt into a drilled hole, instead of precision hardware into a machine-bored hole) you wind up putting a bending force on alternate fulcrums, with slop between for momentum to build up -- non-optimal. TREs avoid all this with a simple tapered fit and built-in hardware, with a castellated nut and a cotter pin to keep it all locked in.

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So are you saying that after time you got a bigger hole in your arms where the bolt was and thus changed over to TRE's?

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Yup... there was obvious wear on the fastener and a lip formed on the top of the hole in the arm. Beyond that, the SREs themselves plumb wore out too fast. Based on wear alone, I'd go with TREs. I used a set of cheap SREs and a set of spendy SREs with the same results...

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I know mine are a pretty snug fit, but if this will happen then why do they even suggest you use them?

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It is an *eventual* thing for most folks. Note that my SREs didn't have a failure, per se, they just got loose enough to have slop.

Why do folks still use SREs? My guesses?
1.) Ease. They are easier to implement than a tapered TRE. Drill a hole, slap it in, and drive... Sure, one could use a straight reamer to cut a precision hole, then insert a precision fastener, but hardly anyone does it this way -- if they wanted to do this kind of machining, they'd just run TREs to start with.
2.) Marketing. SREs are sexy -- I'll cop to that. They are cool parts, nothing like the average old TRE, with the precision bits shrouded in grease, under a boot. The print mags play them up, as well. Let's face it, we're easily distracted by bright, shiny objects!

The truth is, for many folks, SREs will work fine, maybe even for a reasonable time. IMHO, TREs would work better, and for longer, in just about every imaginable case, but that's my opinion (founded, as it is in experience), and opinions are like 's -- everyone's got one, right? If you don't trust my opinion, though... look to the OEMs. TREs everywhere, from heavy mega-buck trucks to a super-lightweight econobox, from family minivans to high-performance sports cars... When a manufacturer needs a rod-end to stand up to abuse and still provide dependable warranty life the TRE is chosen over the SRE.

Randii

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That looks like a saginaw steering box.

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I am wanting to do this exact setup on my drag link, using a GM 4x2 steering box which this looks like.

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you'd be better off to swap top a Jeep Wagoneer Pitman arm and use the Wagoneer LFT hand thread TRE on the stoch "underside" mounting.............I'm running this on my RS. .....the Lucky thing is that Saginaw Boxes (basically) all use the same spline count for the pitman arms so there is a wide variety of options for arms.

the wagoneers use GM 1/2 ton taper ....to interchangability is

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So where is the happy height medium?

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My dream was to be able to keep the 3" lift springs and the longer Shackles on the rear, and balance the front with that for ride height. I figure this will be about 7-8 inches of lift over stock, no body lift. I beleive that the only way this will happen is SOA or coils on the front axle.

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It sounds as if only the coils on Troy's rig have successfully kept his rig as a daily driver, without some other serious mods (Ie engine/tranny/xfercases)

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huh? there are many successful daily driven leaf SAS's as well (many pictured at the beginning of this thread). Troy just happens to be one of the few (only?) coil sprung SAS. IMO, the same results are achievable whether you choose coil or leaf.


-Rob

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My dream was to be able to keep the 3" lift springs and the longer Shackles on the rear, and balance the front with that for ride height. I figure this will be about 7-8 inches of lift over stock, no body lift. I beleive that the only way this will happen is SOA or coils on the front axle.

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I assume you are talking about SOA'ing the rear w/ your 3" springs and SAS'ing the front to match? this is your 7-8" of lift out of the front? I don't think this at all means an SOA front end. In fact, for that lift, i would say SUA. 7-8" total lift out of a SAS is pretty minimal. I would estimate my SOA SAS to be over 13-14" of lift.

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So where is the happy height medium?

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It sounds as if only the coils on Troy's rig have successfully kept his rig as a daily driver, without some other serious mods (Ie engine/tranny/xfercases)

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It sounds as if only the coils on Troy's rig have successfully kept his rig as a daily driver, without some other serious mods (Ie engine/tranny/xfercases)

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huh? there are many successful daily driven leaf SAS's as well (many pictured at the beginning of this thread). Troy just happens to be one of the few (only?) coil sprung SAS. IMO, the same results are achievable whether you choose coil or leaf.

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Basically my goal was as low as you can go SOA in the front, while maintaing some pretty durn good flex.

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The real answer I was looking for was, who has done SOA on the front axle and still been able to keep their ride as a good daily driver? I understand that all sorts of things could be done to level out both ends, but I was kinda hoping for SOA lift on the front axle, keeping it small, but still leaving me with flex.

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I'm not sure of the leaf guys, who has gone SOA vs SUA. But, I think most of them would say their SAS would work as a daily driver. Whether or not they actually are is another matter. Everyone's idea of a daily driver is different too. I think mine's great as a daily driver, but you might be scared sh!tless the first time I braked hard and got some funky left-sided nose-dive that you have to steer into slightly. That's my quirk I'm working on, but it's nothing I'd consider a major issue since I'm expecting it.

IMO, what makes a scary ride is one that won't drive straight. One that tends to wander on it's own or death wobble is *not* what I'd consider a DD candidate. It should also behave when braking. You should have plenty of braking power, and you should be able to keep it straight/upright in a hard-braking, panic stop situation.

--Dan

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Troy is hardly the only coil sprung SAS'd Isuzu out there.

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Basically my goal was as low as you can go SOA in the front, while maintaing some pretty durn good flex.

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Ps. Rob your truck looks nice, but I don't know if I
would be comfortable with my truck that high.

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I'm not sure of the leaf guys, who has gone SOA vs SUA. But, I think most of them would say their SAS would work as a daily driver. Whether or not they actually are is another matter.

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Everyone's idea of a daily driver is different too.

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IMO, what makes a scary ride is one that won't drive straight. One that tends to wander on it's own or death wobble is *not* what I'd consider a DD candidate. It should also behave when braking. You should have plenty of braking power, and you should be able to keep it straight/upright in a hard-braking, panic stop situation.

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unless you are flowing someone's blueprint exactly, every SAS will be different.

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7-8" total lift out of a SAS is pretty minimal. I would estimate my SOA SAS to be over 13-14" of lift.

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Especially when you add in tires. It may be helpful to specifically compare SUSPENSION lift, and maybe even to subdivide into spring lift, axle tube, and hard lift (hangars, shackles, etc.)

SAS is a big undertaking... but with lots of research in advance, it is highly doable!

Randii

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IMHO the coils are almost as nice on the road as the IFS was, but off road the ifs was nicer for going fast.

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OK...so when running the coil sprung front is it "easier" to control your lift?

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The one thing I cannot emphasize the most? How much it pays to work on your steering "quickness". I thought my rig was almost undriveable until I lengthened the pitman arm. The steering knuckles on a Waggy axle (dunno about Chevy, Toy) jut out farther forward - so you've got a longer moment arm to push side-to-side in order to get steering one way or the other. Lengthen the pitman arm and you equalize that longer moment arm, quicken up your steering, and make a really vague-handling truck much more driveable. That, and keep the drop angle of your drag link to an absolute minimum.

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Good point, Mike ... I have thought about this before, but have not read about it here, yet. This comes down to effective leverage ratios... most Pitman arms have substantially more space between the pivots than the Isuzu. There's a corresponding ratio on the knuckles, whether you have IFS or a solid axle.... Isuzu uses a shorter dimension, there, too.

It gets complicated when you deviate from that matched geometry, which you'll do with just about any easily-available off-the-shelf knuckle steering arm I am aware of. Buying most commercially-available knuckle steering arms effectively increases the lever arm at the knuckle, and if you're running the stock Isuzu pitman arm, there is no corresponding change, so you have a net change in leverage that can translate to strange steering feel.

I planned around this on my setup by first fabricating, then eventually spec-ing a custom knuckle-top steering arm. Others have swapped in a steering box that allowed a much wider assortment of pitman arms... the folks who are at risk are the folks using off-the-shelf knuckle-top steering arms (whether for Toyota or Dana). This is one more thing to consider in planning your SAS... you may want to keep the same effective leverage or change it, but you should definitely consider it. As note above, there are *MANY* variables in an SAS swap, and this may be more or less troublesome, depending on the rest of your setup.

Randii

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And, I gotta echo what Rob said. A well handling daily driver SAS has far more to do with research, attention to detail and some level of compromise between max off-road performance and decent on-road handling than with what kind of springs are used.

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Guess I shoulda read further.
Dan and Rob have said better and earlier what I ended up saying later with more words.

(edit: Dangit, Dan -- you beat me to the punch on the point that most folks will claim DD status, whether others would agree or not! We've spent *WAY* too much time together, apparently ! Everyone's idea of a DD *is* different: my definition of a DD is one that I can toss the keys to anyone ('wheeler or not) without having to explain anything. FWIW, that rules out every non-crossover-steered Toyota with the torque arm removed -- hello, brake-steer?).

Good work, guys... and good discussion, all!

Randii

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The real answer I was looking for was, who has done SOA on the front axle and still been able to keep their ride as a good daily driver? I understand that all sorts of things could be done to level out both ends, but I was kinda hoping for SOA lift on the front axle, keeping it small, but still leaving me with flex. So far who has done this?

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OK...so when running the coil sprung front is it "easier"to control your lift??

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Lot's of good advice here....the question's answer is different for everyone.Do you drive 5miles in town to work
or 45miles in the mountains to work?

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I drive mine 30 miles each way over hills and what not to get to work. I think it could use a sway bar and a steering stabo for a little better ride, but at least there is no death wobble from the pig now

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what do the radius arms do for the truck?

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